Just A Thought

Canada Immigration Forum (discussion group)


 
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Subject: Just A Thought
  Why does it surprise people when some immigrants use Canada as back door entry to US?

Its a fact that most emigration from a country takes place due to economic reasons. There are other reasons also such as stability, better environment etc. but economic factors are at the top. So, when the same people move to another country after obtaining PRs in Canada, it comes as no surprise to me. US has better opportunities, hence people are automatically attracted towards it.

May be we are forgetting that the same people left their home countries where their parents, relatives live, where they have spent decades of their lives. So, if people move to another country then it should not come as surprise to us and we should not feel sad or disappointed.

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I had been posting messages as Anonymous for quite a while but I will be using samm from now on.

[22-07-2007,04:11]
[***.69.59.137]
samm
(in reply to: Just A Thought)
Exactly, all must undersstand that immigrants want to settle in a country rarely go there for some love affair with that particular place. They are always moved by the economical issues. Name of the country doesn´t mean a whole lot.

So it is fully understandable why many people emmigrate into the USA. Simply oppurtunities are much more there. Not only the immigrants, many born Canadians also follow the same path.

I think it surprises mostly some Canadians. They don´t understand the fact that immigrants don´t have such mental ties with Canada like them, so immigrants will go USA, UK, Australia or even in the Mid east for better oppurtunities. None of these countries are his/her homeland either, all the same. From legal point of view it is also fully acceptable so far.

You may read some interesting discussion here.

http://www.canada-city.ca/canada-immigration/posting.php?messageid=20426

[22-07-2007,11:26]
[**.18.16.171]
Departed_Canadian
(in reply to: Just A Thought)
As a new immigrant to Canada myself, this argument not only surprises me but embarrasses me as well. I´ve read variations of it before.

The problem with it is many. People who apply to Canada merely as a backdoor to the U.S. waste Canadian immigration resources, cause immigrants truly wanting to live in Canada to wait longer, and potentially ruin the lives of many who are forced to the back of the line or never even apply.

Secondly, it´s dishonest. To the Canadian government, people, and to yourself. Lacking such integrity says volumes about one´s personal attitudes, morality, and future behavior in Canada. Immigration is a commitment between you and your country of destination, not a springboard for self gratification and opportunism.

[22-07-2007,14:22]
[**.47.174.241]
Richard
(in reply to: Just A Thought)
Richard, you said it much better than I ever could.

As a Canadian, it also dismays me that someone would have bought into the propaganda that the US way of life, politics, foreign policy, international credibility, health care and educational system is superior to what Canada has to offer. We simply don´t see it that way.

Do people migrate from Canada to the US - yes but according to CIC the in-out movement between the 2 countries is a wash.

[22-07-2007,14:38]
[***.121.220.199]
sharon
(in reply to: Just A Thought)
Richard,

You have good points. However, as long as the immigration from Canada to US is not illegal I don´t see anything wrong. Canadian law is clear for the non-resident Canadians. While on US you can file non-resident status in Canada as per the Candian law. So morally I don´t see any problem. Canada is not some like countries who don´t allow their citizens to permanantly settle abroad.

Now, if someone comes with an intention to use Canada as a step stone to launch his career in the US then it is definitely unethical, but sorry to say, still legal. This is something similar to US visa interview. For US visa interview, all applicants are asked about his future plan in the US. Everyone have to say that I´ll return to my homeland after the intended period. But what is the reality? Many of them stay in the US for good, yes, legally. Meaning, using false statement, they entered into US, but got residency legally. US immighration also knows this unofficially. The entire incidents are just loop holes. Same thing plays here too. Canadian immigration also knows the outgoing immigrants beforehand. Stat Canada reported that 1 oout of every 6 PR leaves Canada for good in the first year, eventually 1/3rd leave Canada within 20 years of landing.

From realistic point of view, I always think that human kind have to mobile, wherever they see oppurtunities they move there. This is nothing different here. Again, for an immigrant, USA or Canada doesn´t matter, only matter is good living, better oppurtunities. I strongly think that it is not a good idea to forece someone in a place where his qualifications can´t earn him a suitable job. He would rather become a burden for that place. Better to free him to chose his path. Isn´t it? I at least didn´t ask for social assistance in Canada rather took my own way.

Sharon,
It is not a question of absolute question of which one is best. It is just personal perspective. Where Richard being an US citizen chosed Canada better, I being an Asian immigrant preferd US as better. Which is best? I don´t know. Both have some plus/minus as well. Depends on what points you think important to you. To me, a warranted good job in my field is above all.

[22-07-2007,15:23]
[**.18.16.171]
Departed_Canadian
(in reply to: Just A Thought)
if someone wants to test drive Canada, come on a work permit. It will tell you everything you need to know. My objection is mostly with those who are counting the days until they qualify for benefits, status, or citizenship or make zero emotional or intellectual commitment to give Canada an honest go.

If you go into a marriage assuming you will be divorced in a year... how hard do you try to make it work?

To me, that is the dishonest part and the unethical part. People want Canada to treat them as if it is a marriage forever when the same commitment is not offered in return.

And please do not give me the speech about how much money an immigrant brings into the country with settlement money and immigration fees. It really does not factor into the discussion.


[22-07-2007,16:43]
[***.121.220.199]
sharon
(in reply to: Just A Thought)
Sharon I agree with you; I also would hate someone who takes advantage over Canada in an evil intention. I know some people took huge student loans and went back home and purchased house there. That is 100% unethical & illegal too. That is nothing but cheating and stealing hard working citizens tax money.

However, I think most people who immigrate into US from Canada first try hard in Canada. Nobody wants to be immigrant for ever with family, isn´t it? Each move with family is practically very hard. If they do so then there must be some good reasons. If they can´t find any good jobs there what else can they do? So, I can´t blame them as long as they pay back the student loan took from Canadian Govt. & don´t break any law. Just to tell you, 4 of my U of T course mates now moved to middle east with good jobs and doing excellent there according to them. So, it is not really the name of the country.

I personally didn´t use Canada as my step stone to the USA. Though, practically now it sounds like that. I immigrated into Canada leaving a setlled job in the USA on H-1. Later for many practical reasons that I tried to explain before, had to move back into the US, yes, with a Candian Passport. But I would never claim any benefits from Canada in the future like pension or even medicare.

I never wanted to go for the discussion of how much fund immigrants are bringing, really out of question here. I didn´t take any loan or benefits from Canada too, I spent my hard earned money in US and paid my own tuition and other costs fully by myself. But I can´t say Canada sucked me to zero, as in lieu of that Canada gave me a blue passport. I´m grateful for that as long as I bear that.

[22-07-2007,17:06]
[**.18.16.171]
Departed_Canadian
(in reply to: Just A Thought)
I did not even know the part about students loans. It makes total sense and it also adds to the total disappointment.

If people want to be treated with fairness and respect, they need to do the same in return.

Canada is considered one of the most tolerant and open societies in the world. In terms of opportunity to create your own destiny... particularly if you are a woman, there are not too many places out there which out perform us as a country. We try hard to make room for everyone - even to the point of rediculous political correctness.

So, please forgive us if we get a little defensive and protective of our way of life, our policies and our sense of fairness.

We are acting in good faith and that is all we ask in return.

[22-07-2007,19:44]
[***.121.220.199]
sharon
(in reply to: Just A Thought)
Yes this question about USA and Canada, what is best ? It depends really on each personal and individual situation.

Departed_Canadian,
I have friend who, for jobs reason mostly, did the opposite of what you did and he is now a happy Canadian citizen in Canada shifting from USA.

I think everyone is trying to catch opportunities as they go as long as it is legal to do so, there is theoretically nothing wrong.

In our case, Canada has "everything" than USA does not have. And I am yet to see a country that gives dependent a "H4"visa like USA that just allow pretty much nothing and forces dependent to live like "in jail": not allow to work, not allow to drive in some places, not allow this and that.... I have known so many couples whose the H4-visa holder is struggling like crazy to get a "H1" visa to eventually be allowed to work! I think USA is horrible that way ... and they say "Land of opportunities".

Maybe some people disagree unless they have been through a "H4-visa" themselves.

I am a H1-B visa holder and even then I hate it because I do have many restrictions, I can´t see USA as a good place to live even when I try hard .... I am sure lots of people know what I mean.

So why am I here in USA? Well I did not have a choice (too complicated story) but I am eagerly waiting for my PR and move to Canada, truly and honestly, for ever and ever no matter what.

While Canada may close doors to some, it definitely opens doors to others!


[22-07-2007,21:29]
[**.56.54.87]
CBV333
(in reply to: Just A Thought)
CBV333,

Very interesting. As I mentioned before, I don´t see USA is a paradise either, comparatively I chose it as a better alternate, it is just relative, may vary from person to person. I can´t be critic on anybody moving from US to Canada, even can´t be critic on many of my fellow countrymen who decided to return to our homeland which is one of the poorest country in the world. Everybod´s case is different. However, the more generic picture is to from Canada to US. Canada has brain drainage issue particularly to the US, not US.

To tell you the truth, my wife is still not a Canadian citizen, and to validate her H4 visa stamping we are having very hard time to get an visa interview in any US consulate in Canada. All are booked and it is like a luck factor to get one! You have to try your luck in 7:00 AM. Yes, of course she feels frustrated to sit home idle, while there are literally thousand jobs around us. However, this downside we know beforehand, so sort of our choice, USA didn´t entice us for anything, nor did it promise for GC either. We took the chance at our own risk, so can´t bash USA for that. I Didn´t have to pay anything for H-1/H-4 processing either. USA doesn´t officially advertise itself as a "Land of Oppurtunities". You know what? US immigration is too stringent/cruel, no doubt on it. But if I were a US citizen, then I would support this. I can´t support too open immigration policiy like Canada. Simply, as a citizen I don´t want to see unnecessary competition around me. This is just demand and supply. That´s why I feel greater freedom in professional world in US. The ball is always in my court as long as the economy doesn´t go real bad.

Sharon,

Sorry to give you the bad news. Yes, there are lot of other abuse of social funding is going on as well. I probably know many other stories which you may not even imagine. Govt. must scrutinize the benefit recipients more closely.

[23-07-2007,00:36]
[**.18.16.171]
Departed_Canadian
(in reply to: Just A Thought)
I am in total agreement with Departed_Canadian. And someone mentioned mental ties with the place, its absolutely true. You have to learn from others mistakes, and you should have a back up plan. I think most immigrants go to Canada thinking that they can succeed there, but if they are unable to lead a respectable life, no one, and I say NO ONE has the right to tell him/her not to go elsewhere if they decide to. I think the very thought that people think that they can direct the traffic is absurd and immoral. All the great things that a nation stands for (no matter USA or Canada or any other) comes down to dust at the individual level if they have had bad experiences. Nobody is born a crook, its the circumstances that turns them into one. There will always be people who crib about Canada and people who crib about the USA, but statistics never lie, you will do the thing that you believe in when your money/life is on the line, but for discussion purposes one can preach whatever they want and get away with it.
[23-07-2007,11:40]
[***.242.242.2]
Raj