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| Subject: To Departed_Canadian |
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Dear DC,
I have to be agree with you in a few things but disagree in others.
I don´t know when was the last time Canada got a nobel prize.
Canadian culture and american culture is very similar in a lot of ways, how ever I don´t agree that Canada is always copying the US.
As a matter of fact, basketball and hockey were born in Canada.
Anywho...
It is a sad reality that are a lot of educated people working in a gas station or so on but I have a hard time accepting that is Canada´s entire fault, that is the point that I like to defend.
I am not a phillosophist actually I´m an engineer and I think you are one as well. As you know we don´t get along with philosophist, we like to see the things based on numbers not on words :)
I can pull thousands of sad stories based on immigrants who couldn´t make their dreams true. However there are thousands of immigrants who are doing very well.
You see, the media publishes just the bad news, very rare they will publish success stories. People don´t like to see those.
The reason I am saying so, is because I deal with a lot of business people who are very powerfull and influent and are not native North Americans.
We have to keep in mind that Canada is a young country, with only ten porcent of the population of the US and we still one the best places to live in the world.
Canadian governemnt has thousands of defects and you don´t have to be sick to get better.
I don´t know what I don´t know.
Why Canadians leave their own country?
I think the questions should be.. why so many people is immigrating to Canada?
I am half German and have Irish. My ancestors immigrated to North America with virtually nothing during a period where the economy wasn´t the greatest.
This country is young and has a lot of potential.
Cheers
Bill
[12-11-2007,19:24]
[***.34.111.122]
Bill |
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(in reply to: To Departed_Canadian)
Dear Bill,
Thanks for coming to the point. There we go, real statistics.
Do you know that Stat Canada reports that 1 out of every 6 immigrants return within the 1st year of arrival? Why?
Eventually 1/3rd departs. This is hardcore stat, very coonservatives. I would say, the real numbers are even much higher, as these numbers are counted based on just the Tax info. Meaning, many Canadians/PRs use to live/work overseas while still filing tax as residents. So, by the book they are still in Canada. I can show by the same way Canadian real unemployment rate is also much higher than it is published. If somone doesn´t get job in Canada and works outside he must be considered as unemployed.
The real stories about sad stories are emerging on the surface very recently, not long. Earlier it used to be the opposite.
Anyway, I don´t care for all. My simply question is why Canadians with their own University degrees have to say good bye? Many reports are available about how they leave their own country. You already read about Canadians are much more likly to leave their country than Amercians, British or even Indians. Is it not a great irony that most educated guys leave behind such a high quality of life in Canada? Many are even Asian countries?
Americans can be duly blamed for many mishappenings, that doesn´t mean that they will be blamed unnecessarily too. They have invaluabe contributions also. Morever, they ahve the guts to accpet their fault. Not vehemently denying any clear truth.
I don´t care Canada´s overall defect. All countries have some. I only care for their immigration policy, that is entirely deceptive. You are happy in Canada that´s fine with me, my wishes to you. But please don´t tell me that Canada has the potentials to support all immigrants they bring.
I never had any doubt about the potential Canada has. It is tremendous, but never been in correct use.
[12-11-2007,19:45]
[***.254.208.242]
Departed_Canadian |
(in reply to: To Departed_Canadian)
Bill,
In DC´s defence I have to say that when we talk about college education, engineering degrees, MBA etc, we are talking about people who are very highly educated in the society, if they cannot succeed then there is surely something wrong.
You pointed out that the failures are potrayed more in the media, I disagree. I think failures are very much hidden not by the media, but by the people themselves. In many cases people have come to Canada with all their life savings to make it big, and then when they do fail at it, its very hard to come to terms with it, moreover there is a bit of ego in everyone, the person who delivers pizza in a dingy corner of Toronto makes his folks back home think that he is living in a penthouse. And you need those people to come out in the open and declare what happened to them here.... I don´t think it will happen.
I still believe Canada is the place for immigrants who suffer hardships in their homelands, because they can actually come here and better their lives, wasn´t that the objective anyway. Some go in the opposite direction, not good!
As per skilled immigration is considered, its simple, it should be based on job market. Someone here argued that we should still let immigrants come in if their skills are not in demand at that point, maybe in the future it will be, I think we have seen over past few years the result of such foolish logic, where immigrants are routinely taking up over qualified jobs, I don´t think you can justify that as skilled immigration.
[13-11-2007,01:49]
[**.112.73.220]
Raj |
(in reply to: To Departed_Canadian)
Exactly the question I asked for many times; "we are talking about people who are very highly educated in the society, if they cannot succeed then there is surely something wrong." I would say, very wrong.
About media, I thing the actual situation is much more sinister than it is used to be believed. Medias still aren´t covering the real picture, because a good number of "concerned true" citizens don´t want to see such real pictures.
In general, the stories like doctors driving cab or professors delivering pizza don´t impact anymore because generally it is thought that their degree is not upto the Canadian standard. That logic is partly true. Local certifications/credentials are must unless coming from some speific countries.
However, real scenario is many born Canadians with their own degress can´t manage jobs in their own country. How does that sound? Listen this,http://www.cbc.ca/ottawa/media/audio/ottawamorning/20050407STU.ram
At the same time Govt. and some brain washed only see serious skill shortage. This hypocracy only tells that either they have no idea about the reality or something must be very wrong behind. What a cruel joke.
[13-11-2007,10:07]
[***.254.208.242]
Departed_Canadian |
(in reply to: To Departed_Canadian)
Dear Raj and DC,
I agree that there are some professions that even though are valid for immigration , they don´t mean anything once a prospective immigrant arrives in Canada.
IE. A Lawyer. What the poor buger is going to do once she/he arrives in Alberta for example?
However, yieling out loud that "we are talking about people who are very highly educated in the society, if they cannot succeed then there is surely something wrong." I would say, very wrong.
Come on....
Is that the case with 220K immigrants coming to Canada every year?
Of course NOT.
I am sorry if Canada didn´t work out for any of you guys, but surely that is not the case for all immigrants.
Being an immigrant my self.
If you look at the stock market (I am not going to publish sites and so on here, this is not the place for it)
We have a VERY VERY VERY strong economy. The oil sands are digging $$$$ of ground and I am not mention the gas patch companies, turisim in BC etc.
Saskatchewan has the largest deposit of hight grade Uranium in the world, Northern Saskatchewan has tons of oil as well as BC, Alberta has tons of gas and oil, mining in Manitoba and I can continue......
Are all these projects developed by only born Canadians??
OF COURSE NOT!!!!
There are people from all over the world working on it. In every single profession that you can imagine.
Of course there are professionals that loved to be sitting on their butts typing in the computer producing only 2 hours out of 7 (1h for lunch) and when they moved to a country where they have to actually earn their position things don´t work and they blame the system.
Do not get me wrong, there are several things that have to improve but for A LOT of us, immigrating to this country has been the greatest decision ever.
What is the cruel reality?
Mr. Super Engineer cannot speak english, have no idea how to drive in the snow and nobody wants to hire her/him for 150K a year.... how unfair!!!!
wake up.... the world is not made of chocolate. (hmmm chocolate)
Cheers
Bill
[13-11-2007,13:41]
[***.34.111.122]
Bill |
(in reply to: To Departed_Canadian)
Bill,
Just curious, are you jealous of software jobs?
Thanks,
Paalov
[13-11-2007,13:57]
[***.225.1.12]
Paalov |
(in reply to: To Departed_Canadian)
Dear Paalov,
Jealous? Why would I?
I don´t understand the question. I think is a job that requires a lot of skills and the person has to be cut for it besides their education. I think that is an area that is over populated in the job market but I might be wrong in that statement since is not my area of expertise.
Cheers
Bill
[13-11-2007,14:06]
[***.34.111.122]
Bill |
(in reply to: To Departed_Canadian)
Great rebuttal Bill, is there a way for you to find out what percent of the skilled worker category immigrants from the developing countries in the past 3-4 years are coming from a IT working background ? Well if you had to take a guess, what do you think is the ball park figure ? Its easy to forget so I remind you again, "skilled worker category".
You can throw out the 220k figure out the window for this part as it includes everyone.
If you read my earlier posting, I totally support people suffering in other countries to come in and get a good life in Canada, are you missing the point here ?
If an IT guy is coming in as a refugee, I am going to consider him as a refugee category, its important to classify in certain cases and not keep shouting out the 220k figure everywhere.
[13-11-2007,14:53]
[***.242.242.2]
Raj |
(in reply to: To Departed_Canadian)
Given the government programs in place, the state of the economy, the realities of virtual ´full employment´, the awareness of issues facing new Canadians...
if Canada is still a terrible place in this current environment there never should be any such thing as immigration. It does not get any easier than this - here or anywhere else. It is not perfect and it is no vacation but who ever said it would be.
I have considered moving to North Africa. I currently have a great job that pays me very well. I know that my first 2-3 years there would be hell. I don´t know the business culture, they don´t know how my skills fit with their systems, they don´t know how my language skills will hinder my performance and I would be a foolish idiot if I thought I was going to waltz in and pick up my life and status where I left off in Canada. Chances are 100% that I would have to take a job well beneath my abilities and find my groove.
Anticipating anything less would be setting myself up for incredible disappointment. I know this before I even file my paperwork.
How will people cope when they finally get their PR and we are in the middle of a recession?????
[13-11-2007,14:57]
[***.121.220.199]
Sharon |
(in reply to: To Departed_Canadian)
Raj, let´s break it down further. We know that there are about 15,000 Skilled Worker files processed every year in India. There is no data available that I am aware of, but I strongly suspect that 7,500 of those applicants are either in the IT or engineering sectors. Why do I know that... because 90% of posters on this forum that call India home are in those industries.
Each year, 7,500 IT/Engineers ask to come to Canada... and where do they ALL want to live - Toronto or Vancouver. That does not count the other IT/Engineering applicants from other countries and they only ask about jobs in Toronto.
How many new IT/Engineering jobs do you think are out there??? 1,500 new positions annually? What happens to the 6,000 left over IT workers????
So, I agree... those 7,500 should be told no, you can´t come to Canada, we want other skills. Trust me...the minute we do that, the screaming will begin. Discrimination, racism, whatever. The false documents will begin and the game playing will go into high gear because regardless of the reality on the ground... people think that Canada is paradise and MUST be better than what they have at home. They would not listen to Raj or DC even if you took out full page ads in a newspaper - they would say ´they don´t know what they are talking about - I am different´.
For the record... I am not isolating India for any reason other than wanting an example and it is well known that India produces a large percentage of trained IT workers.
So you are right - forget the 220,000. Considering the realities of 15,000 is enough to see we have a problem. However, it is a 2 way problem. A system that is too open to all... and a completely unrealistic expectation of what paradise really is.
[13-11-2007,15:19]
[***.121.220.199]
Sharon |
(in reply to: To Departed_Canadian)
Sharon,
That is a satisfactory explanation I would say, considering the fact that most horror stories are about these very engineers or other seemingly highly qualified professions like doctors etc not being able to find a good life. We don´t see a farmer, or a taxi driver or a plumber etc coming from 3rd world countries complaining about it, do you. In fact those are the very examples that people like you, Bill etc bring up in the posts here to let everyone know that there are success stories. I totally agree to that. Moreover currently not all the occupations under the sky are on the NOC, why ? So having said that, why cannot Canada take out a few and add some new ones that reflect the current job market. I think its a good place to start... and if there are future IT immigrants in the forum, they need to know the reality about "their" specific profession, if they still want to go ahead, by all means good luck to them, but they now go in armed with the existing knowledge from people who have been in their shoes before and as you have said, maybe they will have less expectations than before.... another horror story averted... agree ?
For each and every person who asks questions like "how is the job market...?" its hard for us to ask them to state their profession etc, maybe we should do that so that you or someone can suggest a right place and give them the right advice. Also regarding why every IT person goes to Toronto, I have answered that in a previous (10 post) thread, simply put I don´t see anything wrong in that, its employment driven.
[13-11-2007,15:41]
[***.242.242.2]
Raj |
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