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| Subject: Question_Part 3-Richard |
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Richard,
I don?t think you needed to be that upset as I never claimed that US system is better than Canada. In fact I agreed on the basic tone very first.
Just based on data and ignoring some basic facts you can compare anything. You of course will get some result & hence reach into some conclusions. Remember some days ago we came to know that Iceland is the best place to live??? That was also reported by the same UN. You are one who was very upset with that I still remember.
Fraser institute is a conservative think tank, I also know that. That doesn?t mean that whatever they report are bogus. I also don?t expect such shallow comments from anybody, specially where they can corroborate their studies with well established data of WHO. You probably missed that. I read various of their reports and sometimes find flaws, true. I don?t know what made you so irritated on this report. It doesn?t ever say that Canadian system is worse or inferior to US which is your greatest worry. It ranked Canada as No. 4 which by all means is a very good ranking. It just emphasized a reform in Canadian system which is very reasonable, Sharon also agreed there.
Free access to healthcare is excellent, no doubt superior to the US insurance/paid system. However, doesn?t mean that only free access means everything. That?s why few months ago an Alberta mom had to go to US to give birth to her quadruple. Another ex federal minister also had to follow the same way. There are many other stories too. Don?t start telling me how bad or money hungry US system is in return, I know that very well and agree. Just trying to say that free access is not the only measure. Read something in Wikepedia about a reasonable comparison between this 2 systems:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems_compared
US has more high tech, less waiting, free emergency service, more law suits against the physicians?
By no way I?m trying to say that hence US one is better. Just to show some sides that are ignored. In short I prefer canadian system, but it certainly needs some overhauling.
[10-01-2008,15:16]
[***.254.208.246]
Departed_Canadian |
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(in reply to: Question_Part 3-Richard)
DC,
Sounds like you´re the one who seems upset.
For someone who qualifies their postings by saying they´re equal, you do frequently slam the Canadian system in the same paragraph or posting. A bit inconsistent and I don´t understand it. And suspicious that neo-conservative think tanks are often quoted, but WHO and UN stats never come up.
Just here you cite the anecdotal incident of an Alberta mom´s problem and experience. Anecdotes never subsitite for real statistics, and anyone can cite an opposite anecdote to make one´s case. Our former Illinois Senator Paul Simon, who advocated for universal heaslth care here, cited a story of Illinoisan without insurance who applied for Canadian immigration to get care they couldn´t afford. In that case, heart surgery. That person received expedited PR status (on compassionate grounds due to family sponsorship) and got the badly needed treatment in Canada.
I guess I would ask, if you don´t believe the US system is better as you say, why always the anecdotes and neoconservative think tank quotes which imply otherwise?
The other point I´d make is I believe a parallel private system in Canada would open the door to the haves and have-nots. That´s how inequality evolved in the U.S. Everyone shoud have an equal shot at needed care, whether they have money or not. I think Canada is widely avoiding this approach.
[10-01-2008,15:37]
[**.47.168.9]
Richard |
(in reply to: Question_Part 3-Richard)
Richard,
Yes I was upset, not because of the subject matter. Because of your personal statement like .."narrow interpretation of alternative choices coming from an engineer."
In forum discussion I never expect to go after anybody´s profession and make any statement like that. I wouldn´t mind a bit if you simply avoided that para and would write whatever you wanted to say. I rarely open any new thread.
I do slam the Canadian system, true. For good reasons. I do that in a very particular angle, that is the job issue. If someone claims that Canada has lot of professional opportunities and dying for immigrants then I definitely speak the truth. You also agreed me there many times. I also slam Canadian Govt. for a flawed immigration system. Why wouldn´t I? That same I also wrote many good sides about Canada whihc you now confortably forgot. Speaking the truth and bashing aren´t the same. In that sense you also ´Slam´ USA always.
Did you find in the ´ neo Conservative" report anywhere advocating for the US system? I didn´t see that. If you don´t wanna hear anything negative about canadian health system then that is your choice also.
I never claimed that Alebrta mom and minister stories are the common, did I? I just treid to show the good and bad sides of both. Nothing is abosolute. My entire point is comparing 2 system with different foundation is not fully justified.
If you think that Canadian system doesn´t need parallel system then that is your opinion. I have nothing to say there. I´m also not a specilist there to draw any conclussion. Just a thought. However, the physician shortage is very acute and some alternative is badly needed in canada. Among the OECD countries only Canada doesn´t have the parallel system, that fact also should be remembered.
[10-01-2008,15:55]
[***.254.208.246]
Departed_Canadian |
(in reply to: Question_Part 3-Richard)
DC,
You´re right, I shouldn´t have made that statement and apologize. I´ve always respected your thoughtful opinions and discussions. I guess it´s an issue that gets me agitated and I have to watch what I say.
Physicians coming to the U.S. for the big bucks. That´ll always happen in any profession where money draws the talent. But that just fosters the inceasingly high cost of medical care in the U.S.
The job situation I´ve always agreed with you.
[10-01-2008,16:18]
[**.47.168.9]
Richard |
(in reply to: Question_Part 3-Richard)
Richard,
I think I understand you very well and that´s why I got upset hearing something like that from a person like you. I know very well that you are extremely upset with the US money hungry health system for well justified reason.
Some Doctors or any professionals will be lured for higher income no doubt, but Canada should counter that too, otherwise physician shortage will only be increased which can´t be overlooked and taken lightly.
I forgot to mention you earlier that even in job comparison I wouldn´t think it is fair to compare US/Canada for the same reason as 2 countries have different economic system. It is obvious that US with the current system will have more jobs. I only bring this issue with many established facts for those who don´t wanna accept this plain fact.
[10-01-2008,16:30]
[***.254.208.246]
Departed_Canadian |
(in reply to: Question_Part 3-Richard)
the Alberta Mom was in a scenario where the neonatal ward was at capacity. At the full expense of the government, the family went to the closest neonatal unit for proper care. Could have been to BC or Manitoba... just so happened that the US was closer. Would a US insurance provider make the same effort?
Richard, I may need to have my knee replaced. I can wait like everyone else but if given the opportunity to have it where and when I want may be worth the $5-7K extra I might need to pay for a private room and a set date that suits me.
[10-01-2008,20:52]
[***.20.117.184]
sharon |
(in reply to: Question_Part 3-Richard)
I see that need, Sharon, and try to understand from your point of view. It makes sense to me too.
But having seen how broken the private medical system is here (as does Michael Moore), and having seen how well it worked for me in Canada, it´s hard to accept a middle road and compromise.
I´m watching Obama´s speech now in South Carolina after getting John Kerry´s endorsement and it´s mesmerizing. This guy in my opinion is amazing.
Anyway, hope this stuff has been interesting for all, as we respect all opinions, even if some differences. I certainly always enjoy discussing with you guys. Sorry of it doesn´t always relate directly to immigration, but it´s about Canada and that´s informative and helpful for many too I think.
[10-01-2008,22:44]
[**.47.168.9]
Richard |
(in reply to: Question_Part 3-Richard)
If I claim a foreign bill to my health inrurance here they would take it as a joke.
Only mental peace here I have is I see there will be change in future in the US system, people are becoming more cautious. Some states are seriously considering to adopt universal system. May be not next years, but I´m sure it´ll happen.
I never claim that US system is better, even with quick access. Still I´ve to pay lot more out of my pocket.
Never I think that Alberta Mom story is a typical example. Howeever, have a strong feeling that Govt. has to look seriously otherwise such stories may become examples. I know in Toronto city in the emergency queue is unthinkable. Some immigrants prefer to be treated back home to avoid languishing from pain.
[11-01-2008,09:34]
[***.254.208.246]
Departed_Canadian |
(in reply to: Question_Part 3-Richard)
DC come on.
You know the emergency queue is unthinkable in Toronto. FUNNY.
DC if on a Saturday night when young idiots are out racing cars and getting into fights and the alcohol is flowing along with other stuff of course the emerg queue is unthinkable. BUT NOT IN TH USA lol
At least Canadian Hospitals do not take patients out by cab and drop them off somewhere else.
DC I entered Sunnybrook hospital in Toronto over Christmas holidays through the emergency department to see someone in Intensive Care there were two people waiting to be seen. One speaking to the Triage (sp) Nurse.
How can you say that when I man cuts off two of his fingers that he has to decide if he can afford both fingers to be reattached or not is a good system?
I do not know for how many years you have been in North America but I have been here all my life. The Americans have been talking about their Health Care system from the day I was born and still they have not improved it.
We whine and complain to but any government that even implies to change it would be out on their ears in a flash.
THERE IS NO COMPARISON-PERIOD AND NO STATE WILL INTRODUCE A SIMILAR SYSTEM NOR WILL THEIR EVER BE A VAT TAX.
Roy
www.cvimmigration.com
[11-01-2008,12:01]
[**.158.52.214]
Roy |
(in reply to: Question_Part 3-Richard)
Roy,
I backed up:).
Don´t wanna waste any time by quoting other experiences and ending up in meaningless debate.
You agree it or not, the physician shortage is a fact. Allegation of long waiting is not just exagerration.
Little example:
"Studies by the Commonwealth Fund found that 57% of Canadians reported waiting 4 weeks or more to see a specialist; 24% of Canadians waited 4 hours or more in the emergency room".
http://www.caep.ca/stopthewait/
Personal Stories: http://www.thestar.com/News/article/216280
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/issues/healthcare/wait.html
I already acknowledged many times that I would prefer Canadian like system even if I have to pay higher tax. BUT certainly would like to reduce the waiting time. If I have to languish in pain for 1 year for a surgery then the free healthcare will lose its attraction to me.
Will there be any change in the States? Well, only God knows. May be you are correct, at least for next few years.
[11-01-2008,12:47]
[***.254.208.246]
Departed_Canadian |
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