Tories slash immigration - 2

Canada Immigration Forum (discussion group)


 
       
Subject: Tories slash immigration - 2
  I thought the discussion was important and interesting enough to continue, at least to give my thoughts.

I think Raj and Anonymous are quite correct on this one, although DC seems to indirectly agree by acknowledging the problem we´re saying exists.

Yes, any employer in any country will always prefer the local native-born national who speaks the local language perfectly. No doubt, I think we all agree with that. But the suspicion is that in Canada, it goes a small but perceptible step beyond that. That there´s a subtle resistance to hire foreign skilled immigrants, regardless of how good their writing, speaking, or presentation skills.

The immpression is that Canadians tend to be more conscious of the category of people they´re hiring and working with, more so than American employers when they consider their candidates.

My theory (although some might think it´s way out there) has to do with Canada´s British heritage. Britain has been and to a great extent still is a class conscious society. When you work for a company in the UK, people are very aware of their social standing and how society and the company expects them to fit in. This is especially true of immigrants there.

I think to a certain degree, Canada emulates that thinking. The largely Anglo-Saxon population who settled in Canada retained the same class attitudes, but maybe to a lesser extent.

The U.S. on the other hand, fought a war rejecting class-based society (except slavery, strangely) as a model. And over the the past 150 years, waves of immigrants freely came to live and work in America, much more so than Canada. This I think is partly the reason for the difference, and why professional immigrants coming to Canada are to this day surprised that they´re not so easily accepted into the organization as in the U.S. or elsewhere.

Ok, maybe a crazy theory, but I tend to look at historical and sociological reasons for why things are the way they are.

[18-03-2008,15:32]
[**.53.224.249]
Richard
(in reply to: Tories slash immigration - 2)
My first instinct is to protest loudly but I realize my own Canadian experience may not be entirely normal. I am from Vancouver where 50% of the population is a visible minority.

Richard, 50 years ago I would have agreed with you. Some rural parts of Canada- you have a point. Victoria perhaps. Vancouver - no way. Why? because we are so multicultural that it would be pure foolishness to even attempt it. Toronto... no way. Thunder Bay, perhaps. Canada is a big place and just like the US has different areas of social homogeny, so does Canada. I think it is safe to say that a Canadian politician would not have had to make the speech that Obama made today. However, discomfort with the unfamiliar can influence someone into preferring one job applicant from another. Ironically, some of our prejudice is more pronounced between the various non white segments of our society. You will rarely see an Asian man employed in a company run by South Asians. Reverse is also true.

We are living with 2nd and 3rd generation visible minorities who speak perfect english and who are comfortable in the Canadian culture. They work everywhere! To say our community is confused at times is a mild understatement. :)

One of my family is married to an Indo Canadian man. He is second generation. She uses his family name. Looking at resume from either of them will not clearly tell the entire story. Only careful reading would tell you they were both educated in Canada and only on visual inspection would you know she is caucasian.

So, your theory has merit, but I don´t think it is the whole story.






[18-03-2008,16:04]
[***.20.79.93]
sharon
(in reply to: Tories slash immigration - 2)
Richard, I just read the text of our friends speech. I can´t wait to hear an audio version. How inspiring.
[18-03-2008,16:40]
[***.20.79.93]
sharon
(in reply to: Tories slash immigration - 2)
Wild theory... hear me out....
I think its got to do with the human mentality to generalize things depending on historical experience.... that one gets to us all at some point, and believe me, there is no running away from it.
To further elaborate.... over a period of time employers all over Canada have tried (some got burnt maybe in the process) to hire new immigrants from all over the globe in myriad fields of skills, and collectively they must have formed a certain opinion about how they meet the expected standards.
Obviously as more and more cultures interact with each other people start forming opinions of one another.. like people from this place can´t speak good English or people from that place are bad at something else etc etc... Well... interestingly enough these opinions also are in the head of employers too... and if a lot of jobs are out there, it takes care of the problem by itself. I foresee these typecasting problems only during bad times or when there are not enough jobs.

I can explain my theory in the context of the IT industry in Canada...
The IT wave is pretty recent, maybe about 8-10 yrs old... I´m talking about IT people wanting to immigrate to Canada, and as we all know there is no shortage of talented IT guys from South Asian and Asian countries. But the point to note is that people from those countries have been immigrating to Canada for the past 5-6 decades although not IT related.... enough for Canadians to form an opinion about those cultures to some extent, and believe me there is a major contrast between rural and urban intellect in those countries, say for example India. I know that lots of farmers and other related people from rural parts of India have moved to Canada in the past 5-6 decades, but they are not in those professions anymore even in Canada... and I can guarantee you that their English speaking skills are nowhere near that of a current average IT or for that matter any skilled immigrant.... But you see when the IT industry was booming, south Asians and Asians came in hordes to the western world, especially the USA, and these guys are the new breed techies with savvy English speaking skills.
Employers in Canada still believe in looking at the Canadian resumes first and that really frustrates these people.... not because the employers consider them to be less qualified, but in most cases because they were not even considered for the position. So basically the point is to regulate your skilled immigration as per labor demands, whatever policy change they are talking about now.... will have to wait and see how that pans out, agreed... its a very complicated affair to get it right, but you need to look at how others have succeeded.

[18-03-2008,17:23]
[***.242.242.2]
Raj
(in reply to: Tories slash immigration - 2)
Richard,

In short, your arguemnt has good logic, though may seem crazy like you said. Just think about why French Canadians consider themselves as different than the British borns. It makes some sense if not all.

In my opinion, that protectionism also came because of lack of enough oppurtunties, in other word it is not directly from racial discrimination. I don´t think that any Canadian employer will shut down his business rather than hiring colored immigrants. On the other hand, many qualified skilled Canadians have to leave their country for job ragardless of color.


Though total % of visible minority doesn´t mean anything solid, espcially it absolutely doesn´t tell anything about how they are doing. About unemployment..poverty line there are distinct lines between immigrants and non-immigrants and the band width is just widening.

[18-03-2008,17:24]
[***.219.255.152]
DC
(in reply to: Tories slash immigration - 2)
perhaps the new rules may assist the poverty issue - it will get people to Canada with the right skills for the right jobs.

because I live the employer side of things, I will suggest that in some sectors, skilled immigrants are a dime a dozen. Of all the annual skilled worker quota out of India in 2007, how many were IT or engineers? An employer has the luxury of disgarding a resume for a spelling mistake. How else do you short list when you have hundreds of applications from a similar background applying for a job?

In a crowded market that applicant needs to distingish themselves from the competition. If they don´t know how, or they are not motivated... well, sadly, they will get passed over time and time again. It does not take much in a flood of talent to get bumped out of line. Race really is a recessive issue.

In other sectors, if you can breath and have a heart beat... you have a job simply because there is little to choose from in terms of potential employees.

That is probably why I see the proposed changes as long over due and far more respectful of new Canadians and the skills they may be bringing with them.

[18-03-2008,18:47]
[***.20.79.93]
sharon
(in reply to: Tories slash immigration - 2)
Here is the entire point; "In a crowded market ..

Very very surprizing that this "over crowded" situation was unnoticed for a long time. Thanks to some interested groups for creating super dillusional image of Canada.

Easy to say that you have to be competitive. Though in reality, when the market is super crowded it sometimes doesn´t matter how well qualified you are. As in a 1 to 100 situation, employers have to reject 99 applicants regardless of their qualifications, no matter whether they are from the best Canadian schools or from a ABC school from other side of the world.

Just look at Alberta, with min´m immigrant unemployment. Why? Simple. They have some real opputunities there. Funny thing is Alberta is considered to be more conservative than the more open Ontario which has more immigrant unemployment.

It always surprises me when people start emphasizing "accepting foreign credentials" as the solution. This is nothing but an eye wash to the real problem. As if if all of the high skilled immigrants would have awarded with Canadian degrees then by magic they all will get jobs from the sky. This concept will do just more harm if any. They are already pressing the Engineering professional bodies to relax the rules; to eliminate the mandatory regulation of Canadian professional experience. More guys may get professional license, but the soceity may get bad quality products.

[18-03-2008,19:23]
[***.219.255.152]
DC
(in reply to: Tories slash immigration - 2)
Sharon,
The post I mentioned above has nothing to do with motivation of the immigrant, just forces in play in the industry that will not help the person no matter how much he/she tries. My point is that even if that one person is better suited than the person who gets the job, he/she is ignored, and being on the employers side does not change anything as you are not expected to behave in any different manner as you are just following "industry standards" or "industry perceptions". Also, if you are receiving more than 100 applications for a job, I can only conclude that the person who will end up with the job will be overqualified, which reflects the state of economy, not anything else like race or educational degrees or professional experience.

The policy change that we are talking about.... wow its a long time overdue.... we have been talking about it for so long.... just browse the debates we had on this forum about who thought what needs to change, and who thought that immigrants need to change.

The simple point is that without knowing the underlying reasons as to why they are struggling, its just too easy to dismiss the new immigrants efforts as "not enough motivation"....

[18-03-2008,19:48]
[***.242.242.2]
Raj
(in reply to: Tories slash immigration - 2)
right or wrong, Canada has been operating under the system of overall points combined with date of application. That is what the Liberal government of the day deemed as fair.

The current system was great for the applicant that has a high demand skill,or was resourceful and open to starting a business or learning a new skill...because they arrive and they options are up to them. I am fearful those resourceful applicants will be pushed aside under the new proposed system.

How I am understanding the proposed changes, the applicant will need to be an exact fit to the current shortage of NOC codes or they will be out of luck. Are we going to create a new problem by solving an old one. No options to come and do whatever it takes to settle and flourish.

THAT is my biggest concern.

Our never ending debate... Where does the ultimate responsibility sit. DC, I know you have wanted to protect new applicants from the delusion of Canadian paradise by promoting the US as a better system and country. I would suggest that North America in its entirety has a reputation that is far in excess of what it can deliver.

Who created that reputation? May I suggest it is largely perpetuated by prospective immigrants themselves.

With the current economic downturn in the US, the next couple of years are going to be very interesting to watch.




[18-03-2008,19:50]
[***.20.79.93]
sharon
(in reply to: Tories slash immigration - 2)
Excuse me, I don´t have to market for the US by anyway. As a matter of fact US doesn´t officially market for luring immigrants.

Though I do want to warn all perspective immigrants to Canada about the reality so that they don´t feel themselves to be a burden on Canada and themselves.

I don´t know any immigrant communities officially engaged in creating rosy one sided picture of Canada with super high expectations. Though more often I see Canadian officials overseas (even sending their minister for immigrant hunting) as well as some vested quarters who depend on immigration for their bread and butter.

Yes, immigrants must share some part for not doing proper research. Earlier there weren´t enough resources for that, now thanks to the internet it is becoming more handy and immigrants are being more cautious.


[18-03-2008,20:49]
[***.219.255.152]
DC
(in reply to: Tories slash immigration - 2)
Sharon, our friend´s speech today was inspiring in my opinion, and should help erase the false sense of fear being pushed by the other side. And you´re right, in Canada this would have all been unnecessary.

Raj, DC and others always have insightful input on this subject. It´s good to see an informative exchange of ideas on why the immigration experience is increasingly difficult for larger numbers of skilled professionals. I also agree the new proposals will cause more problems than it´s worth, with incredible administrative overhead.

Perhaps as stated here already, arriving immigrants have to simply find their own way in the system wherever the fit works best. Be it far-flung Alberta mining towns or inner city Toronto, but the key is to not oversell the job market as an unlimited opportunity, for the many reasons we´ve all discussed earlier. Realistic expectations should be provided.

[19-03-2008,01:15]
[**.53.224.249]
Richard