Lawyers and the immigration process

Canada Immigration Forum (discussion group)


 
       
Subject: Lawyers and the immigration process
  There has been a lot of talk on this site as to whether to use lawyers or not. I´d like to offer my opinion. Firstly, I am a lawyer but I am not posting looking for business (I am plenty busy, thank you). I am posting here to help you decide for yourself whether to hire a lawyer or not. There are few points to keep in mind:

1. Visa officers are not lawyers, and they often do not apply the law correctly (thousands of cases that wind up at the Federal Court of Canada over the years attest to this, where the court finds that the Visa officer made an invalid rejection).

2. Visa officers have the discretion to reject or accept an application, whether or not the 67 point threshold has been met.

3. A good lawyer will not just review your forms. A good lawyer will also draft a detailed and lengthy submission to support your application. My submissions inform Visa officers of recent court cases that (for example): a) require Visa officers to give applicants a chance to respond to concerns before rejecting a file; b) compel Visa officers to consider all sorts of property as settlement funds; c) compel Visa officers to consider alternate NOC´s (they do not have to unless requested by the applicant); d) compel Visa officers to exercise their positive discretion in the event their assessment of points differs from mine; etc etc etc.

Ask yourself if your chances are improved using legal counsel or not. Sure, you can engage the process yourself. In fact, you can engage most legal processes yourself (e.g., lawsuits, real estate deals, wills, estates, etc.), but the outcome may be radically different, and your rights to permanent residency may not be recognized without counsel arguing on your behalf. Phoning CIC for help is risky -- I´ve had many clients who were totally misinformed by CIC and their applications were delayed or denied because of it. Remember, CIC folks and Visa officers are not lawyers. Read the Immigration and Refugee Act, and the Regulations -- those documents are hundreds of pages and they are complex. Add to that the history of court cases interpreting the provisions and immigration can be complex.

Can you succeed without a lawyer? Yes, people have immigrated successfully without a lawyer. Can your file be rejected because you didn´t use a lawyer? Happens all the time, and it keeps the appeal courts full of unhappy, rejected applicants. Just depends on the risk you are willing to take. A Visa officer who sees a full legal submission on behalf of a client is not as likely to come to the wrong conclusion as compared with an applicant who simply sends in the forms.

4. Lawyer´s fees -- yes, many lawyers charge US $1,600 or more. But you are making a life-changing decision to move to another country. There are dining room sets and stereo systems that cost more than that. Seems like a decent investment, but decide for yourself.

Cheers.


[23-02-2005,04:29]
[**.71.39.138]
Gianpaolo Panusa
(in reply to: Lawyers and the immigration process)
immigration offcers are not your friend, neither does cops
[23-02-2005,04:48]
[**.66.31.59]
Yijie
(in reply to: Lawyers and the immigration process)
" Can your file be rejected because you didn?t use a lawyer? Happens all the time, and it keeps the appeal courts full of unhappy, rejected applicants. "

Awww....C´mon...scaring people´s pants off providing that sort of information. Naughty , naughty !

[23-02-2005,10:35]
[**.194.188.194]
John
Happens all the time (in reply to: Lawyers and the immigration process)
It´s just a fact that it happens all the time. Here is a list of 7,715 cases of rejected applicants who wound up at the Federal Court of Canada, many of whom were granted residency based on Visa officer error:
http://decisions.fct-cf.gc.ca/sino/srch.pl?language=en&database=en&numhits=20&cour=T&method=all&query=immigration


[23-02-2005,12:31]
[**.71.39.138]
Gianpaolo Panusa
(in reply to: Lawyers and the immigration process)
out of those 7,715 cases how many rejections were overturned? how many had applied with a lawyer. 7,715 out of 9,000,000 applications in the system is not that outrageous.

Ar you liscenced?

If your application is straight forward and you can read...there is absolutely no reason to pay someone to act as a mailing address.

[23-02-2005,13:15]
[***.81.114.40]
sharon
(in reply to: Lawyers and the immigration process)
Hmm, interesting link. First case I opened is about an Ukrainian who concealed the fact that he was a member of the" Ukrainian schutzmanschaft battalion" during 1942-44, a division of Ukrainian volonteers, collaborating with the nazis and actually a part of the waffenSS.
Well....I would throw him out too !

[23-02-2005,13:58]
[**.194.188.194]
John
(in reply to: Lawyers and the immigration process)
how much tax payer´s money from your ,Sharon´s and my income tax gonna throw into here?
[23-02-2005,14:47]
[**.66.31.59]
Yijie
(in reply to: Lawyers and the immigration process)
by the way, thanks for sharing, this reading material is great
[23-02-2005,14:52]
[**.66.31.59]
Yijie
(in reply to: Lawyers and the immigration process)
Gianpaolo Panusa: is that possible if you are required to interview and you bring your lawyer with you. When the questions will be asked, let lawyer tell you if you should answer or how to answer?
[23-02-2005,15:31]
[**.66.31.59]
Yijie
(in reply to: Lawyers and the immigration process)
I have gone tru those court cases at that web page several times thank you. I did not use a lawyer. As a matter of fact I decided I would only hire one when I need one(if I get rejected). You forgot to mention that applicants are only allowed for a juridicial review if there is a clear indication that an immigration offcer has made an error. Most cases are medical reasons or refugee applications that are more complex. I believe that there is far more applications that are accepted than rejected. They do not willingly reject any application. Also it is a reguirement to state a reason for rejection as you said, but that is no secret. People can study all these factors themselves from
CIC web site. There is operation manuals for all public to see.

[23-02-2005,18:39]
[***.140.218.63]
April
judicial review and policies (in reply to: Lawyers and the immigration process)
1. There are 2 levels of appeal before you get to court: the informal process which many lawyers utilize, as we meet immigration officials at conferences throughout the year, and the IAD. Then you go to court.

2. Visa officers make plenty of errors, so it is easy to get into court. The numbers of informal appeals and those at the IAD number in the tens of thousands. Do you think all these appeals are based on a correct officer assessment?

3. CIC policy is not law. There have been many policies vacated because of lawyer challenges. The law is the Act and Regulation. Policy can not override.

4. I am pleased you were successful representing yourself. I posted this thread because most people argue against hiring a lawyer by saying "I was successful so you don´t need one" which is not an argument at all.

5. If you hire a lawyer once you have a problem, it will cost you big money. A decent lawyer will start at $10,000 for an appeal, and go up from there. The $1,600 to file the application starts to look like a bargain.

Again, this is in the spirit of allowing people to make up their own minds with facts, not just personal experience. I have people who approach me everyday who were rejected even though they met the requirements.

As it was said above, a Visa officer is not your friend and not your advocate and does not care whether you get in or not. A lawyer is your advocate and will fight hard to get you in. Lawyers live on referrals -- we need successes to build business and our ethical code requires us to always act in the best interests of the client.


[23-02-2005,19:16]
[***.34.170.253]
Gianpaolo Panusa
Counsel at interviews (in reply to: Lawyers and the immigration process)
A very recent Federal court case (2004) determined that the policy of the CIC to disallow counsel at an interview was illegal (another policy out the window). Because a lawyer challenged it on behalf of a client, you can now bring counsel to the interview with you, which is just and proper. A lawyer can address questions that are inappropriate (such as racially charged questions) and protect a client during the interview. A lawyer can also raise case law that Visa officers may not be aware of.

Still think a lawyer is a waste of money? You decide. As with most things in life you can do it yourself if you try hard. Question whether or not professional advice is appropriate for a life-changing decision.

I have been accused by email of looking for work. I repeat: I am not looking for work -- I just hate seeing honest applicants get run over by the Canadian government and by Visa officers who are not fluent with the law.

[23-02-2005,19:25]
[***.34.170.253]
Gianpaolo Panusa