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| Subject: Success Story - II (Continued) |
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Continued from earlier index
I have some very fundamental differences with sharon on almost all canadian economic issues. At the outset,I want to say that I have high regard for sharon because of her very helpful nature on this forum, and i wish her the very best...
about me, I have couple of postings about my canadian pr experience and i am extremely appreciative of canada for giving me the pr. I have a us MS degree in engineering and am in the us for last 5 yrs.
The very basic question what i think canada should address is "what is our economic vision for canada and who are our target PR applicants. If we stand any chance of competing with US how do we make canada attractive for very well qualified people vis-a-vis US. " ? Do we continue to have a socialist country and tax the crap out of honest working people, or we let the people have their own money..Do we make life difficult for small businesses who create jobs by all the regulations, or do we give them a free and fair reign and let free enterprise thrive ?
You have been saying that there are jobs available in construction, plumbing, road building, mechanics.
One cannot expect to have engineers and doctors, entrepreneurs leave their country and their good jobs, come to canada, take these low-skilled jobs and still be happy to be in canada..(Unless there are political persecutional reasons in their homeland)
Agreed, its not the governments job to find people employment, but it sure as heck is their duty to create circumstances and economic policies, where qualified people will succeed in their profession, and I just do not see that happening in canada... I agree to the point of foreign degrees and english skills, but even canadian university graduates arent doing good either..
It again goes back to what your vision for canada is. One good way to have a better economy, is to encourage small businesses, create attractive environment for major corporations who would bring jobs that need college degrees, and ..list goes on and on..
i m sorry, but i dont think any well qualified potential PR applicant would be thrilled to see the postings about vacancies in construction or road building...but i know a lot of them would be if the vacancies were in bio-technology, stem cells, engineering modeling, nuclear area research and so on..
As I said I like canada, but I am disappointed with the canadian economy and its direction. My point is that with a very very low defense expenditure, very less population, zero corruption, free political society, great infrastructure, THERE SHOULD BE NOTHING STOPPING CANADA....
I will write more in detail about china, outsourcing, outrageous health care costs, US - canada comparisons , but i want to know what people think..
I beleive this is an important topic to discuss, and it will definitely help the new applicants get better prepared.
Thank You All,
Parag
[11-06-2005,21:32]
[***.152.222.131]
Parag |
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(in reply to: Success Story - II (Continued))
just to complicate our discussion... let me tell you a little bit about my day job. I represent the interests of 400 small to medium size businesses who generally hate taxes, regulations who are equally disgusted with the direction of Canadian economic policy. It is part of my job to lobby for their interests. So, I am not a lover of Canadian economic policy, but at the same time I would not live in the US if it was the last place on earth.
Everyone seems to worship the US economic engine. Many of you want to make the US your home. Face it... they don´t want you - at least not permanently. They only want to suck the life out of your skills and then send you packing without so much as a thank you or pension cheque. They don´t even let you in the door unless you have a job. At least Canada lets you give it a shot any way you choose and then lets you make a life here. If you are in the US on a work permit and find yourself without work - I am told you have 30 days to find a new job in your field or you go home! And you think that is civilized?
Don´t tell me you are earning comperable wages to your US counterparts. I would want to see proof. You buy into a US lie. If you only see Canada as your launching pad, you will never invest the time,energy and emotion it will take to truly make the best of the Canadian system and economy.
I agree 100% that we are not matching industry needs to PR applicant skills. Canada is too slow in adjusting immigration policy to meet the economic needs of the country. trouble is, even if they do... the 5 years of Indian and Chinese applicants waiting to enter the country would still be processed under the current system.
perhaps we go to the US system. You cannot come to Canada unless you have a skill we want and need. Forget the notion that you can ever bring your family (wait times aside). Forget that you will retire here. If your english is not perfect - forget it.
so what should Canada do about job vacancies, and the pool of available immigration applicants? How do we find the carpenters, electricians, road builders that we need. Do we give the IT guys a chance to change careers or do we lock them out.
how should we do a better job of filling our needs as a country and satisfying yours? seriously. I am not trying to bait you. If we can figure it out here... maybe somebody important might read it and do something about it.
[11-06-2005,22:14]
[***.20.170.23]
sharon |
(in reply to: Success Story - II (Continued))
Sharon,
let me respond to your paragraphs # 2 and 3, before getting to the real issue...
A prominent requirement for H1B visa approval is that the wage has to be more than the prevailing wage for that job position at that expereince in that geographical area.. So your claim that foreign citizens are not paid as much as US citizens is wrong AT LEAST for US MS and PhD holders.
While it is true that some software companies hire H1b candidates just so they can freely lay them off and not have to pay unemployment, but it is only in case of people who are here directly on h1b and who dont have a us degree. A US masters´ degree has an enormous ´leveling´ effect, and in lot of cases even is bigger advantage than US citizens....however, u are very right about the plight of ALL H1B people if they loose their job, unless their green card process is in the 3rd (I-485) stage...
About other things that you have said about US, I am sorry to see a intellegent person like you buy totally into what the enormously biased liberal US and canadian media wants you to believe...but thats for another time....
NOW, lets back to our original topic :
About who will do the low skilled jobs ?? the entire idea canada should have is try and fill the jobs by canadians first, and get foreign nationals in an area where there is a demonstrated shortage of canadians.
FOR EX: We know for a fact that americans and canadian socities do not see engineering / medicine as a high-respect profession, unlike say, india..When i was a teahcing assistant here in US, I asked every undergrad student about their career choices, and less than 5 % of them wanted to stay as an engineer, everyone wanted to be a lawyer or accountant..they were using engg as a launching pad to get into a good accounting or MBA school !!!!
So, when unemployment is HIGH and economy is BAD, and less than 30 % population has college degree, there is something very very wrong if canada´s problem is finding labor for low-skilled jobs in this environment..It shows that these jobs dont appeal to canadians, and also the unemployment insurance they get lets them get by fairly decently....
Canada´s short term strategy should be to take maximum advantage of the outsourcing wave in the US. The kind and number of jobs that were outsourced recently is mind-boggling, but lot of people have realized the mistake in having indian, chinese do those jobs, which have lot of customer interaction - language problem and manners, etiquettes and attitide were the problem ,
SO, since canada is very similar to US, and prices are cheaper than US, I would change my tax structure so much, that every company would want to outsource to canada, get into a mentality that if you are an employer, and u are creating jobs in canada, govt is ur best friend, give major concessions in tax, regulations, healthcare insurance coverages, co-pays, and in general make them feel welcome..
Also, canada needs to get away from the mentality that it is the job of hardworking honest people to feed and provide healthcare for those who didnt. i ve read stories where people dont feel any motivation to work, if 50 % of ur income is taken away in taxes !! I live in tax free state in us, and i still think federal tax is much higher....
Thats the Socialist mentality, whole idea that if u are making money, if u have a business.... You are Bad, we will get you ! Look where socialism has got france and germany !
So the low skilled jobs should be filled by canadians, at least until unemployment drops below 1 % and get foreigners only for high skilled jobs..high skilled jobs = high money = high tax income for govt = better economy = better developed country.. Again, what is your vision for ur country ?/ do u want to fill the country up with people who either dont qualify for good jobs due sto myraid of reasons, or your system doesnt recognize their worth and make them work for the betterment of country ??? OR do u want only those people to come to canada whose qualifications will fit the nature of jobs that you anticipate becoming available and importantly who will never become a dependent on ay social programs...
canada should have made this choice long ago, but even now its not too late....
parag
[12-06-2005,00:54]
[***.199.185.133]
Parag |
(in reply to: Success Story - II (Continued))
ok.. I will continue - only shortly tonight. 2 things.
1) it is unwise to ask ´deer in the headlights´ undergraduates about their long term ambitions. more often than not, their perspective has very little to do with real life- it has everything to do with a fantasy they have created in their own mind. (Canadian or not)
2)you assume that jobs that are blue collar/dirty hands/honest labour... are not skilled or ´low skilled´. I think there are a few people out there that would object to your observation. it might be better to refer to them as ´different skilled´
Canada has not seen 1% unemployment since forever!
Canada is agressively selling themselves to the US as an alternative location for outsourcing.
I am not an expert on Hb1 so I must defer to you. I only hear what I am told. All the folks in a panic, looking to Canada as a plan B because US of A does not respect them and what they offer.
I am far above average income and I only pay 35% combined taxes.
You are right... to many Canadians... people who own business are ´big bad corporations´ It makes me crazy.
You are also right, changes to address our current reality should have been make 3-5 years ago. but then... where would that leave your PR application?
looking forward to your reply. I am really enjoying this banter. I hope we can continue this in a spirit of friendship and perhaps we can all walk away a little wiser.
[12-06-2005,01:19]
[***.20.170.23]
sharon |
(in reply to: Success Story - II (Continued))
I will write tomorrow, its almsot midnight here on east coast.
should we post this on your other thread too ? I would like to see other people (specially new immigrants or PR in-process applicants) contribute to what i think is an important discussion.
thanks
parag
[12-06-2005,01:42]
[***.199.185.133]
Parag |
(in reply to: Success Story - II (Continued))
let´s just pick one thread.
[12-06-2005,02:29]
[***.20.170.23]
sharon |
(in reply to: Success Story - II (Continued))
Hi Sharon and Parog. Just to contribute a bit to the the discussion...I´m a PR in process applicant, and I believe that there are some truths in both of your arguments.
I have seen this US/Canada economic comparaison many times in different forums. Most complaints where from disapointed immigrants who couldn´t find jobs in their fields. I think that in fact, many people who immigrate to Canada are people who want to go to the US or are already in the US but can´t stay there, so they decide to go to Canada in hope that it will be the same. Most of the time they are disappointed because it is a different country, with a different system, with different strengths and weaknesses.
Also, about the economic system, it sounds that in the US, an immigrant can get a job very easily while in Canada it´s impossible. My view is that whether you are in the US or Canada things are not easy and you need to fight in life. There are people who also struggle in the US. I lived in the US for 6 years and I still have many friends there and I saw people struggling there. I saw a Lebanese who had a Doctorate degree working as a cook because he couldn´t find a job, I saw american citizens who were unemployed for over a year and had an MBA with extensive experience in the US and abroad. I have a friend who is a teacher on a Hb1 visa and was able to find employment only in poor neighborhood schools with high crime rate because no americans want to go there although she graduated from the best university in her state. Most of her friends who graduated with her got much better jobs.
When I read posts of people who have a hard time finding a job in Canada that match their experience and education they are most of the time very highly educated and very experienced people and left a senior position at home in hope of finding the same in Canada. Let me give you an illustration, if I had my own company in Canada and I had to build a sales team and I had to hire a sales director what would my criteria be? I would hire a person who knows the local market and culture very well and someone who has proven to be successful in selling and managing in the local culture. If someone came to apply for the job and had 10 years of experience as a sales director in let´s say...Italy, what tells me that he will have the same success in Canada, with no knowledge of the Canadian market and culture. You probably won´t sell the same way to an Italian as you would to a Canadian. So hiring a Director with no Canadian experience would be a bit risky.
However, as an immigrant I believe that it would be easier to find a more junior job. This time, if I had to hire a junior salesperson, what would my criteria be? Probably someone who´s got a bachelor degree. The experience is not as important because I will train the person, so the personality and the potential will be more important to me. In this case I´d be willing to consider someone with no Canadian experience.
I think that the main reason, foreigners seem to be doing better in the US is that if they get into the country, they went to school in the US in a highly demanded field and got an entry-level job there or they were sent to the US from their company at home. I don´t think that a foreigner who came to the US with no US experience can find a senior position at a "director" level.
Maybe I have a different perspective because I work in HR.
In conclusion, I believe that if you are at a very senior position in your home country, you will most certainly face many difficulties to find a job that will suit you in Canada. Because most of the time you will not have the required local experience to find a senior position, but you will probably be too old to be recruited for a junior position, as most companies prefer to hire young people for those jobs.
[12-06-2005,06:56]
[**.120.114.103]
Canada1702 |
(in reply to: Success Story - II (Continued))
If we have to compare it to the US.... here are my 2 cents.
US "skilled" immigration has always resulted in a better result. Period. The process is straight forward. First you find a job, then you sponsor for immigration, and its a smooth transition. When a person becomes an immigrant there is no change in his life. Canadian "skilled" immigration is nowhere near what it should be, we might as well take out "skilled" out of the question.
Things are tough in the US too, but for people coming in in a different class, say family or otherwise. They might be skilled, but come in expection the world from US (and this is typical of every skilled immigrant to Canada). So pls don´t compare "skilled" Canadian immigration to that of the US.
[12-06-2005,12:13]
[**.113.191.176]
Raj |
(in reply to: Success Story - II (Continued))
it is sounding like you would favour a work permit type system for skilled workers in Canada. No pre-arranged job- no entry. am I right?
[12-06-2005,15:15]
[***.20.170.23]
sharon |
(in reply to: Success Story - II (Continued))
Well, you can do what you have said above. I think Canada already has a work permit system in place. Moreover you will stop hearing complaints from over qualified people doing menial jobs, or being unemployed and wasting out their life savings on 3-4 years more of college OR .... come up with a different process to justify the "skilled" part of the immigration by allowing the new immigrants opportunity before they land in Canada to get whatever skills they need to be what you call "Canada ready" so that the moment they land there, they don´t face the concept of "Oh you are are here now finally after 30 yrs of education ? Great ! please feel free to get even more educated before we can consider you for a suitable job" thing.
Even the Canadian Govt. has admitted shortcomings in this regard and they are trying to change the system, I feel that is the step in the right direction. I am not saying give every immigrant a job, but the least you can do it make him/her eligible for one, after all you do claim that he is "skilled" don´t you ?
[12-06-2005,20:11]
[**.113.191.176]
Raj |
(in reply to: Success Story - II (Continued))
I totally agree with you. CIC is not supplying Canada with the skillsets we need, and often PR applicants are so invested in their chosen careers that making a shift is unrealistic. I know they have been talking and talking and talking about this problem. It would be to everyone´s advantage to adjust the system. I think it would mean moving closer to an Austrailian system.
I wonder what it would do to wait lists, and source country statistics.
[12-06-2005,20:59]
[***.20.170.23]
sharon |
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