The Gourman Report: Ranks of Eng. schools

Canadian Universities Forum (discussion group)

Subject: The Gourman Report: Ranks of Eng. schools
I find it amusing that people are actually considering Waterloo, Ryerson, Carleton, and Windsor as viable candidates for REAL engineering schools (I´m talking about elec, mech, and chem). The simple fact remains that in terms of preparation, UofT and McMaster, along with McGill and UBC, are the top Engineering schools in Canada. Proof? The Gourman Report.

Overall ranking:

Ranking based on faculty of Eng: (UofT #1, Mac #4 in Canada, #2 in Ontario)

Mech Eng: (Note, #1 in Mechanical Engineering)

Other disciplines:

As you can see, other than Mech Eng, in Ontario we´re pretty much #2 in everything. So if you want to have to life what so ever, go to UofT. If you want to have fun, while getting a great education, come to Mac.

what rubbish? (in reply to: The Gourman Report: Ranks of Eng. schools)
the report u are talking about is of 6 years ago, 1999. But i do agree that UofT is one of the best, i dont think that waterloo is any bad. However Macmaster seems not a better option to me and so does UBC, the requirement is sooo less showing how relatively bad the uni is. I have applied to Waterloo, Toronto and Carleton and i think they are pretty good to consider. I didnt like the mcgill site which is y i rejected it. Probably you can tell me how good it is. And what do u think bout Victoria.
(in reply to: The Gourman Report: Ranks of Eng. schools)
Mac asks for low-mid 80s average coming out of highschool. It´s not easy by any standards to get in, and it´s much harder to stay in, believe me. Judging a school by it´s acceptance grades are useless, IMO. Go visit the school, compare the facilities available at Mac to Waterloo, for example. Waterloo is severly lacking in mech, chem, and civil facilities. They do, however, excell in computers.
Thanks for the information (in reply to: The Gourman Report: Ranks of Eng. schools)
it was surprising to hear Waterloo having such bad standards after having good views abt it. Frankly speaking i did not consider the facilities at all and i just got carried away by the name "Waterloo" which i heard from friends to b the best in Canada.

All i am looking for is a good university which supports the faculty of mechatronics or electrical engg properly enough to provide a well paid job after undergrad. The recognition of the degree matters. I would appreciate if you could guide me on the matter.

Sorry for a sort of rude reply i posted earlier

(in reply to: The Gourman Report: Ranks of Eng. schools)
McMaster is # 88 in Top 500 World Universities

engineering in canada (in reply to: The Gourman Report: Ranks of Eng. schools)
I am in my third year of engineering at u of alberta, and I am a lot more ´mature´ than others in my classes. Anyway, I know MANY engineers, and am a transfer student from ubc(transferred in my first year to get away from my crazy family) The fact is, I thought I used to be pretty smart. I mean, I had unbelivably high grades going into university from high school. When I looked into u of a, I saw that entrance averages were ridiculously low compared to those ubc required - I will be honest, I looked dowm on u of a at first, due to this reason, but it was the closest university so I decided to transfer to u of a ( that and it has the best chemical engineering program in canada) Boy was I mistaken, did you guys know that Alberta has the highest highschool education standards in canada?? I sure didn´t.

I guess what I´m trying to say is, the "entrance average"/"competitive average" you see in different universities is most definitely not an indication of how good the school is/difficulty, etc. Take u of a for example, they put their students on a "curve" for every course - ever taken statistics?? they put students on a bell curve and assign grades that way, which means, it means squat if you got a 80 on an exam.. if everyone else got a 100, you fail the course. HAHA. In my engineering classes, there is only 1-3% of students have A´s. It has been like that ever since apparently. Students don´t seem to mind that they need to go through the rigorous, vicious, mean, torture of surviving first year - first year has drop out rate of 20-30% after two semesters (I heard). I´m the kind of person who can´t settle down at one place - I looked in to moving out east - never been east of here. I emailed people at u of t and waterloo, I heard they were the best, they replied me with such shocking truth - THEY HAVE NO DROP OUT RATE SO THEY DON"T ACCEPT TRANSFER STUDENTS BEYOND SECOND YEAR FOR ENGINEERING. WHAT???! Isn´t engineering supposed to be hard????? aren´t the "unfit" supposed to be weeded out during the first couple of years????? Especially for such institutions that are known to have such high quality in education, I am shocked beyond belief. Now some might say, "well, maybe it´s because alberta kids are so stupid that people drop out in their first year" - I assure you they aren´t...they are dominating competitors for numerous engineering competitions in canada, and in north america every year. Ive met some of the most brilliant people I have ever known at u of a. I have no desire to go back to ubc. I´ve known students who transferred from u of calgary, from the States who went right back home after one sememster, because they can´t get used to the fact that unlike their old school, u of a doesn´t just give out A´s like it´s Christmas. just between you and me, I knew an american student who bragged a lot about how high his gpa was in the states, haha, he went home after failing 4 of his midterms. (maybe he was just homesick but I doubt it) it was pretty hilarious to me. LOL (I am not saying americans are stupid by the way)

I have had the pleasure of dating a man who researched quality of bachelor´s degrees and professional designations( you know, like CMA, CFA,etc). as a man who held a master´s degree, and 2 undergraduate level degrees, and a CMA and a CFA - he studied in york, u of a and u of c. He always said that he never understood why some universities are ranked so high even though the quality (or as he put it, the "academic difficulty") really "sucked" compared to the ones that are ranked lower in general in magazines and other publications until he did his research. (he did it for a living for 2 and a half years by the way, lucky bastard) He said the reputation of universities, (or the "rank") had almost everything to do with how much money is being poured into research (graduate studies), not how high their education standards are for undergraduate programs. So, for all I know, the toughest school to survive at an undergraduate level engineering is University of Sasketchewan(is that how you spell it??).

I have written this long ass thing just to clarify some things that tend to be misunderstood by many. If you want to get high grades and aren´t smart like einstein, don´t come to u of a. you will definitely see a dive in your gpa like I did - mine went down quite a bit from having almost all A´s and B´s at ubc.

Engineering schools in Ontario (in reply to: The Gourman Report: Ranks of Eng. schools)
I´m petty sure UofT is the best engineering school in Ontario, considering their huge research facilities and funding, as well as their internationally reputed professors.

I´m sure that many people think that the admission average can reflects their quality. However, this concept is totally wrong. Consider the case in some countries in Asia, the percentage of people who can get into university is like 0.0000001%, those people are probably the brightest of each province, but I guess we are still a little bit better than them in engineering technology, because we know more and we spent more time in this area. Engineering is something that requires technical knowledge, and the only way to have the newest knowledge is research. For engineering, you do need the newest knowledge especially for electrical and computer (engineering), you don?t want yourself engineering the past while others are engineering the future, right?

Maybe you would think that some other schools are better in software engineering. I personally will not reject this, but UofT has recently setup a new ECE curriculum, which emphasis more on software. Now they have two programming courses in first year, and web server design project in second year, also, students are available to choose software engineering courses as their major area of study. Compare to the old one, which only have one programming course in first year, I guess that?s a lot improved.

I would definitely follow this guide from choosing engineering schools (I think the most recent one is published in 1999). Mac has a long history in engineering, and they have their reputed researches too.

(in reply to: The Gourman Report: Ranks of Eng. schools)
it´s ok... we all understand why ur at mac and saying how good ur school is... it´s ok... it seems that mac mech cannot excel in recruiting best students nor can they excel in national/international competitions, and yet you seem to brag about how good mac mech eng is, so ur backing up ur point by linking to reports dated in 1999 on mac´s website. thats about the most ridiculous thing i´ve seen. u might want to check out the schools ur dissing and see what they say about their programs. btw, it´s ok...
(in reply to: The Gourman Report: Ranks of Eng. schools)
wow, this is funny. of all the years of my life, i´ve never seen anyone put down that many schools from mac, especially waterloo. probably didn´t get in, and is trying to make himself feel better. especially pulling "evidence" from mac´s website, it´s advertising... perhaps u r talking about graduate studies maybe, but undergraduate studies, no way. carleton, ryerson, windsor, waterloo r all relatively new schools compare to UT and mac, so graduate studies would be relatively weaker since less funding; however, undergraduate studies it is UT and waterloo that dominate in terms of comp, ee, mech, chem. overall, waterloo is best for undergraduate studies in these, and UT is best for graduate studies in these programs.
My Eng is bigger than your Eng... (in reply to: The Gourman Report: Ranks of Eng. schools)
Oh boy. This argument is timeless, "Which Eng is the best". Although I´d love to reminisce about the ?Age of Lore? when I was in university I will just sum up my point and briefly explain.

The Canadian Reputation Rankings:
1. University of Waterloo (U of W)
2. University of Toronto (U of T)
3. McGill University
4. Queens University
5. University of British Columbia (UBC)
6. McMaster University (MAC)
7. University of Alberta
8. University of Western Ontario (Western-UWO)
9. Carlton University
10.Ryerson University

The Gourman Report is the authority on the rankings. BUT (and this but is huge) there are two additional bodies of influence: the Employer Community and the Academic Community. Among the Employer Community Microsoft, Koei, Ubisoft, Adobe, RIM-Blackberry, Wall Street firms (financial software), and many others only care about Waterloo and U of T. Maybe McGill and Queens in a good economy. Harvard, Caltech and the American academic elites drool over Queens. Seriously, they actually salivate at the thought of a potential grad student from that school. Beyond Queens most American university grad schools do not distinguish between Canadian universities. Yes, I know this is the shock of the year to you guys but it is true. Provided you have a +80% from a Canadian university you can pretty much walk into any American graduate program with relative ease.

The reasons for Employers and Academics thinking this way is because they follow the leaders in their field. Employers KNOW where Microsoft shops. Academics know who Stanford calls for the smartest undergrads. And I, from working in engineering career services, financial institutions, the computer graphics field, and foreign countries understand the lead-follow phenomena.

Within Canada there are all sorts of measuring devices, with all sorts of criteria. Outside of Canada employers know Waterloo, and often U of T; Academics know Queens, and maybe McGill; and in general Europe knows about Queens (thanks to Herstmonceux One small anomaly is Hong Kong where they adamantly believe Waterloo, U of T, Queens and McMaster are the best schools and Ontario has the best universities. But this is mostly based on the harsh TOEFL requirements and the high caliber of Asian language programs at these schools.

And as a take home snack, here are the perceived Employer/Academic rankings by program:

Overall (All programs, facilities, professors etc.)
1. U of T
2. McGill
3. Queens
4. UBC
5. McMaster
6. Western
7. Alberta
8. Dalhousie
9. Guelph

Medicine (US is most familiar Queen´s & McGill by name)
1. Western
2. McGill
3. U of T
4. McMaster
6. Alberta
5. UBC
6. Queens
7. Ottawa
8. Dalhousie
9. Calgary

Applied/Fine Art (Industry leaders NOT graduate research)
1. Ontario College of Art and Design (OCAD)
2. Sheridan College (Bachelors Programs)
3. Waterloo (Architecture only)
4. Emily Carr Institute
5. McGill
6. York University
7. Alberta College of Art & Design
8. Concordia University, Faculty of Fine Arts, QC
9. Carlton University
10.Ryerson University

(in reply to: The Gourman Report: Ranks of Eng. schools)
I think you rankings are a little flawed. My uncle went to Oxford for Med and one of my cuz´s is in Princeton right now. I can tell you what kinds of ranking they heard of about Canadian universities in those fields.

Overall (All programs, facilities, professors etc.)
1. Toronto
2. McGill
3. UBC
5. McMaster
6. Western
7. Waterloo
8. Queens
9. Dalhousie
9. Ottawa
10. Alberta

1. U of T
2. McGill
3. McMaster
4. Ottawa
6. Queens
5. UBC
6. Montreal

Applied/Fine Art (Industry leaders NOT graduate research)
1. Concordia University, Faculty of Fine Arts, QC
2. York University
3. Ontario College of Art and Design (OCAD)
4. Ryerson University

Usually Universities in bigger cities like T.O, Montreal, Ottawa, Vancouver, etc have more research funding and overall higher quality of professors and accessibility to resources.

It all depends also on the program someone is going into.

Concordia is known for have the best photography/painting programs, Mcgill and UofT are overall known for science and medicine, U of O is the best for neuroscience, queen´s for undergraduate studies, waterloo for anything in computers or elect eng, mcmaster is one of the top in bioscience, etc

Ottawa U vs Carleton (in reply to: The Gourman Report: Ranks of Eng. schools)
Hi guys,

right now i live in barrie, just one hour of toronto. I´ve applied to both ottawa U ( mech eng) and carelton (aerosp. eng) and i was just wondering which university would be considered "the best"

(I´ll be sending a letter to carelton be considered for the mech eng. program (in case i dont get in the carlton program)

i hope to hear from you later,
you guys seem to know what your talking about.

ps: im only considering Ottawa U and carelton because my mom lives there and shell only pay for my uni if she doesnt have to pay for room and board.


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