"Artsy" Replies cont

Canadian Universities Forum (discussion group)

Subject: "Artsy" Replies cont
you make it soudn like a professional engineer is on level ground with techies or somthing. Typically a 30 year old engineer will manage a team of established seniour technicians and technologists working within engineering.

Its not a bad job considering technologists normally have better job oppertunities than a BA holders(not including accounting, business etc)

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No offense taken. But i know the value of money, my parents havent given me a cent for the last 2 years.. Just a question though, are you actually working full time while your in school? if so i applaud your effort. Its virually impossible to do that while studying eng, since we get about 30 hours per week of class and 35+ of homework

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About the MBA thing... The reason why many of the top engineering managers have MBA´s is because the companys will give you an option to take it part time while you work. Besides an MBA is a business degree, and many of us have stated that business education is the useful exception of the arts sucks rule.
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You know i don´t doubt that you have work experience, but working as a call-centre boy at Bell doesn´t give you the adequate exposure or experience to make statements of the engineering profession. Neither does having two(!!) friends who have engineering degrees. I´d rather trust the original poster, who seems to be studying towards an engineering degree and is thus likely to know more about the field he is entering. Plus engineering is such a huge field, your statements are so general and narrow. As I stated before, engineering involves much more than the jobs you see at telcos, maybe you should experience some kind of work at Bombardier, Pratt, or SNC before making ignorant statements e.g. non-engineers can be trained to do engineer´s work. Maybe at telcos, but i´d be surprised to see non-engineers designing bridges, engines and robots. The company who hires these non-engineers will be sued promptly. You´re correct, Michael Sabia does not have an eng. degree, i was incorrectly looking at Ronald Brenneman´s profile, he happens to be CEO and President of Petro-Canada and has an eng. degree.
I´d be surprised to see a majority of BA´s managing engineers, very very surprised as those with BA´s know nothing of the technology that is implemented in the company. Maybe you should provide sources so that i know that you´re not bs´ing. btw, the very reason a company like Pratt will help out its engineers in getting an MBA part-time (like the above poster suggested) is so that they will take over the management positions, not those with BA´s.
I´m sure there are ppl w/ BA´s out there who are successful, but i highly doubt that they, on average, will have more successful/higher paying jobs than the professions. Just looking at the salary survey that was original posted proves this.

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When i talk about BA, i´m not talking about those in business/management. talking more about the ppl in psych, poli sci, etc.
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Engineering, Science & Architecture Managers (NOC 0210)

To be an engineering manager, you need a bachelor´s degree in engineering, or a college diploma in engineering technology. You also usually need to be registered as a Professional Engineer (P.Eng.) or certified as a technologist (CET or AScT) by your provincial/territorial professional association.

To be a science manager, you need a master´s or doctoral degree in a scientific field.With experience, you may move up the ranks to become a senior manager in your respective field.

Sorry, but no BA´s here.

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Training, Other Qualifications, and Advancement

Experience as an engineer, mathematician, natural scientist, or computer professional is the usual requirement for becoming an engineering, science, or data processing manager. Consequently, educational requirements are similar to those for scientists, engineers, and data processing professionals.

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Managers in Communication (Except Broadcasting) (NOC 013)

To be a telecommunication carrier manager, you usually need a university degree in science, electrical or electronics engineering, or a related field. You may also need several years´ experience, including supervisory experience in a related technical occupation.

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wow long post and I agree that we are posting the exact same arguments.
I am not idealistic. Actually I just like to argue and I hate it when people misrepresent things based on subjective "facts" such as certain "experiences" or other anecdotal evidence. I prefer objective facts. If someone can prove me wrong by showing me raw data, then I´ll be happy that I´ve gained some knowledge. But when someone says so and so is like this because my friend told me this and my workplace has this, well, i just don´t deem that credible. And you know what? I disagree with the same idiots who say that a BA, with a starting salary of 30K, is a road to poverty or that a BA is worthless because their mom said so. I don´t pick sides.

Speaking of real facts, jobfutures is developed by the economists at Human Resources Development Canada. The data also involves consultations with business firms and many organizations. The second link was a page that was copied directly off of the U.S. Department of Labor´s Bureau of Labor Statistics, where again, economists, mathematical statisticians and computer specialists conduct the studies. You can find the exact information in http://www.bls.gov/oco/. So they aren´t just "pretty" links, they are both credible sources that provide factual data that is more trustworthy than anecdotal evidence. Therefore, when both government-backed sources say that engineering and science (and telecommunications) managers have an engineering or science background (and NOT a BA), I tend to believe it.

Thanks for enlightening me on the situation with telcos, but I stand by my statement that the firms that most engineers would want to work for (e.g. Pratt, SNC, CAE, Bombardier, Microsoft, etc.) will not share your views. No I´m not an engineer and I admit, I don´t have much corporate experience, but my father is a retired professional engineer who has worked in some of these firms (but of course, now i´m bringing in my own subjective evidence) and we talk about his experiences often. Anyhow, by the way you describe it, I´d feel sorry for any telco engineer who doesn´t move to the big engineering firms I´ve listed above.

I understand that many jobs are very trainable. But for a field as specialized as engineering, I have doubts. The entry-level positions maybe, but when you´re getting into the more sophisticated design aspects of certain engineering projects, again i have serious doubts. But we will never agree on this so wtv. And I disagree with the notion that engineers and scientists don´t make good managers because they are shy and introverted, if that´s what you were implying. This is a myth and a misconception. I don´t know about your school, but engineering students here have a reputation of being heavy beer-drinkers and party-goers (not that that´s a good thing either). Check out the engineering parties at your school or search up the websites of engineering student societies across the world and you´ll know what I mean.

And finally we agree, the road to management is not reserved for the brightest and talented. The points you´ve mentioned as well as office politics plays a great deal I´m sure.

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man, this has gotten to the point where you will try just about anything to win this argument.

SO... basically your saying:

1) engineers have no people skills?

Engineering is the biggest club on campus, eng parties are wild! Just because we need to work hard doesnt mean we dont go out. Oh and yes i do laugh at the kids who think its cool to take geography and then drink away all the money their parents give their spoiled little asses, while they maintain a 70 in courses unworthy of wiping my ass with.

The following is a list of courses anyone with down syndrom could pass:

any psychology course
physical geography
human geography
most english classes
all political science courses
womens studies
im sure theres more i mission

2) engineers are not cultured we only talk about engineering?

- You claim to have "4 close engineer friends" you must have to talk about all kind of boring things with them in everyday life huh? chemical process,differential equations, concrete reinforcment..

Yes you guessed it, we are all narrowminded and only concern ourselves with one task, engineering.


3) engineers are lonly and uncomfatable around women?

What a lame steriotype, yay i suppose we are all going to be 40 year old virgins huh? Sorry but being a professional is in no way hurting my abilty to pick up. Dont worry pal, some day im sure youll meet the right girl.

4) The following is the lamest thing ive ever heard:

"soft sides of the biz are treated FAR better than the techNOLOGY side meaning: having regular hours, being able to attend company events, thank-you emails when a project is launched, greater exposure and therefore opportunities with executives"

They accomplish this by: "rising out of the labour pool"

I suppose in the magical world of Telcos the labourers go out with managers to discuss the finer points of manual labour or secretarial work and leave the engineers behind. That must be how they get so much exposure, with company executives.

Ok back to the real world. You might get a generic thank you email from the boss, meanwhile the general manager of so and so operations is having dinner with the engineering department discussing the future propects of the company.

Good luck rising out of the labour pool, sucker.

By the way, quit saying "BSc and Eng", there is ALOT more oppertunity for eng graduates.

Just to give you a taste of what the industrial world is like... At the company i work for right now, only professional engineers are qualified to work as superintendent in any of the mine, mill of smelter ooperations.

I work for Falconbridge Limited, its the fourth largest nickel producer in the world, oh and by the way im making more per hour during my summer job right now then most people with a BA make when they are 50.

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To the poster above me:

Congratulations on working at Falconbridge.

Either you haven´t been following the thread or you´ve misread everything I said. Misread? Geez, looking at the quotes and context you´re trying to attribute to me, it doesn´t look like you can read period. You´ve got a pass if English isn´t your first language but I doubt that´s the case from your slang.

Thank you for proving my point. Unlike the other dude I´ve been chatting with, your points aren´t worth taking to task. Argue with an idiot, look like an idiot.

Hope you enjoy being a tool because you´re not fit to be responsible for anyone else.



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