its not where you go to school... 2

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Subject: its not where you go to school... 2

according to the PEO website the average wage for an engineer with 15 years experience is $91,031.. after the 15 years mark wages start to slow down rapidly, BUT by this point most engineer have stoped working in engineering and moved in managment position outside of the engineering department so wages are not recorded for them. a 45 year old engineer grad will be making well over 100K easy.

And by the way... i did not reply to myself, there is more than one educated person on the forum

[30-06-2006,13:37]
Anonymous
(in reply to: its not where you go to school... 2)
To the fellow who said:

"According to PEO, an engineer who graduated in 2000 (6 years experience) would be making a median salary of $57,450. "

Im pretty sure im looking at the same webpage as you. Its a survey that was done in 2003 and the person graduated in 2000, that means 3 years experience.

An engineer with 6 years experience 69,824 big difference

2003-2000 = 3 years

[30-06-2006,13:44]
Anonymous
(in reply to: its not where you go to school... 2)
I am the other educated person. I did not double post to my own response.

The average $91k figure after 15 years is a bit higher than what I found in an employer survey. According to that survey, the median salary for 10 to 15 years experience is in the $70-80k range. Keep in mind this is NOT a survey of engineers, but a survey of employers. I believe the actual median figure reported by engineers themselves would fall in the lower part of the range at about $70K.



[30-06-2006,14:59]
Anonymous
(in reply to: its not where you go to school... 2)
http://www.peo.on.ca/publications/salary_survey/2003_Survey_of_Employers´_summary_report.pdf


go to page 8, it shows the average wage of engineers vs years out of school as recorded by the peo

[30-06-2006,15:12]
Anonymous
(in reply to: its not where you go to school... 2)
its sort of old as it is a 2003 survey but im sure not too much has changed in 3 years
[30-06-2006,15:12]
Anonymous
(in reply to: its not where you go to school... 2)
The direct document links don´t seem to work for my browser. The survey can be found at the PEO web site under Publications/salary surveys/...

The $70-80K figure for 10-15 years experience came from a chart in the 2004 Employer Survey (page 8 of 12) for all levels of responsibility.

Salary compression sets in after 10 years. Very few engineers make six figures. Many engineers don´t make it past 15 years for various reasons. Outsourcing, cyclical down-turns, bad politics, age discrimination are among some of the probable reasons.

Inflation-adjusted real wages for engineers have actually been on the decline in recent decades. The salary numbers also may do reveal how many engineers may be working 60 hours per week for those salaries.

Civil engineering has the best retention. It´s not reflected in this salary survey though. I remember learning that a much greater proportion of civil engineers remain in their field after 20 years of practice compared with say- electrical engineers. This is probably due to technological change. If memory serves me right, over 80% of civil engineers remain in their field after 20 years compared to just over 60% for electrical engineers. Results vary.


[30-06-2006,17:33]
Anonymous
Correction (in reply to: its not where you go to school... 2)
"The salary numbers also may do reveal how many engineers may be working 60 hours per week for those salaries. "

should read:

The salary numbers also do NOT reveal which engineers are working 60 hours per week for those salaries.

[30-06-2006,17:38]
Anonymous
(in reply to: its not where you go to school... 2)
no engineers i know work a 60 hour week, infact i doubt there are very many at all... engineers are always on salary we dont work any overtime. every engineer ive ever met or heard of has worked an 8 hour day 5 days a week. The survey shows how the salarys slow down at 90K per year because in many cases once you are granted that level of responsability the next step up is normally managment outside of the engineering department. Managers dont do the job of an engineer so they obviously arent going to be included in an engineering salery survey, very few company managers are going to make under 100k per year. Face it guys, engineering grads make alot of money
[30-06-2006,17:47]
Anonymous
(in reply to: its not where you go to school... 2)
"Salary compression sets in after 10 years. Very few engineers make six figures. Many engineers don?t make it past 15 years for various reasons. Outsourcing, cyclical down-turns, bad politics, age discrimination are among some of the probable reasons."


You clearly have no idea what your talking about. Engineering wages plateau or "Salary compression" sets in or whatever but it doesnt happen until the 16th or 17th year from graduation according to the numbers on the PEO website.

you said a few other ignorant things so here goes:


1) Compsci gets outsourced, no engineers do though. Even software engineers dont, a software engineer doesnt even code.

2) explain "cyclical down-turns" to me? as far as i can see industry in north america industry isnt going anywhere. There is alot of jobs for engineers and there always will be. The only exception would be mining or petrolium engineers who are effected by material prices of metals and oil, they make up a very very small part of engineering in general.

3)Bad politics are not soming exclusive to engineers, it effects all professions so im not even sure why you mentioned that.

4) Age discrimination? you came up with that one after seeing how engineering wages seem to plateau after 15 years right? Thats an easy answer but not the right one, I explained the reasons for those numbers above so i wont mention it again.

[30-06-2006,18:09]
Anonymous
(in reply to: its not where you go to school... 2)
please send me the source that indicateds that 60% of electrical engineers quit the profession? thats ridiculous!!! they are the highest paid discipline in engineering, and engineering is the highest paid field needing only 4 years of education.

Why would 40% of them quit to make less money in an unrelated field?

[30-06-2006,18:17]
Anonymous
(in reply to: its not where you go to school... 2)
"no engineers i know work a 60 hour week..."

A close friend of my family is an electronics engineer in a tech company. He suffers from "burn out" (a.k.a nervous breakdown) triggered by a coroprate merger. During the nine months leading up to the merger he was working 60-hour weeks. He had been in this company for 15 years. While I can agree the majority of engineers work normal hours, the pricture isn´t as pretty as you paint it.

Corporate and university recruiters want to attract perspective students with inflated salary figures. How else can they justify investing four years of rigorous study to become part of an occupational group which average earnings compare marginally favorable with plumbers and other more lucrative trades?


[30-06-2006,18:19]
Anonymous
(in reply to: its not where you go to school... 2)
As far as i know not to many trades approach 90K per year thats $45 an hour, a sucessful tradesman makes in the 20s or 30s. The onyl way a tradesman will make more than an established engineer is if he is working overtime constantly. I wouldnt compare the quality of living an engineer enjoys with that of a trades person.

As well there is no glass ceiling in engineering, in any industrial or manufacturing type company the managers are primarily made up of engineering grads. As i said before the manager who makes 160K is not included in an engineering survey because he no longer does the job of an engineer, he does the job of a manager.

[30-06-2006,18:40]
Anonymous
(in reply to: its not where you go to school... 2)
The salary survey includes engineers who are in management. It is defined in the "A-F Classification Guide of Engineering Responsibilities" The Guide defines Level D, E, and F as supervisory roles with Level-F being primarily administrative.

It stands to reason that an engineer who manages the activities of other engineers is still an engineer for the purposes of the survey. The 100K+ salaries apply mostly to engineering managers. These positions are becoming fewer in the age of corporate downsizing. These are usually the most vulerable to any streamlining.

[30-06-2006,19:59]
Anonymous
(in reply to: its not where you go to school... 2)
wow i didn´t expect this to blow up, i´m the first guy who posted that engineers in their 40´s in ontario could expect 6-figures.

the 80K figure is an average for ALL engineers in ontario. it´s actually a figure that corresponds to the average salary of quebec and alberta engineers based on their respective surveys. i wouldn´t be surprised if engineers in all provinces make an average of 80K. I don´t know about the employer survey, but these numbers are from the professional associations/orders and are probably more representative of the profession.

the guy talking about salary compression, cyclical downturn, 60 hour workweek. WTH are you talking about. the OIQ 2005 survey shows that the average quebec engineer works an average of 38.2 hours a week. I´m guessing it´s comparable to ontario engineers. And the other stuff you said, you really have to back that up ´cause i´ve never heard of that. your friend doesn´t represent the whole profession.

the average salary numbers are reflected in government studies too. it´s not corporate/university recruiters making up numbers.

http://www.alis.gov.ab.ca/wageinfo/Content/RequestAction.asp?aspAction=GetWageSalarySearchResult&format=html&Page=SearchSalary&RegionID=20&MinSal=50000&MaxSal=999999

this is from the government of alberta
$97,464 2145 Petroleum Engineers Petroleum Engineer

$96,669 0211 Engineering Managers

$92,029 2134 Chemical Engineers Chemical Engineer

$90,582 2144 Geological Engineers

$78,620 2132 Mechanical Engineers Mechanical Engineer

$77,445 2131 Civil Engineers Civil Engineer

etc. so these are not fabricated and inflated figures.

Also it´s not just the managers making over 100K. Level E engineers make an average of $96,760 (2004) and these guys represent over 20% of engineers. And i talk about engineering manager as in an engineer who´s job does not involve design anymore and is more administrative, like one of the posters stated above. Managers are the ones who may have MBA´s. Again, i really have no idea where you get the statement that engineering managers are decreasing.



[30-06-2006,20:48]
Anonymous
(in reply to: its not where you go to school... 2)
Someone asked for a source relating to the numbers of engineers leaving their field after 20 years. Those numbers are from my memory, which isn´t very good (=: And I do recall seeing other references to civil and electrical engineering or perhaps it was computer science which I consider an allied specialization of electrical/computer engineering. I searched the Internet and found this from Dr. Norman Matloff´s writings:

Dr. Norman Matloff wrote:



Source:
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html#tth_sEc5

As you can see, Dr. Matloff´s numbers are much worse than I gave from my recollection. But the idea is the same. Note that computer science is very closely allied with electrical engineering. With the recent increased concentration of computer subjects in electrical/computer engineering degree programs, it doesn´t take a genius to figure out what´s good for electrical engineering is also good for computer science.

Readers should also note Matloff´s comments relate to the U.S. job market, which is generally seen by many Canadians to be the broader job market for engineers.

On the matter of salaries, the $80K median suggests half of those engineers with 15 years experience would earn less. Those with grad school or MBA, a manager position or have specialist skills in a hot market are probably the ones earning above the $80K median. The proportion of engineers with higher than bachelor level education is roughly 30%. I personally know of no engineers pulling a six figure salary. They are out there but they are in the minority.

Chemical, geological, petroleum engineers are in high demand right now so it stands to reason their salaries should be at the higher end. I´ve always known chemical, not electrical engineers to be the highest paid.




[01-07-2006,02:19]
Anonymous
(in reply to: its not where you go to school... 2)
Someone asked for a source relating to the numbers of engineers leaving their field after 20 years. Those numbers are from my memory, which isn´t very good (=: And I do recall seeing other references to civil and electrical engineering or perhaps it was computer science which I consider an allied specialization of electrical/computer engineering. I searched the Internet and found this from Dr. Norman Matloff´s writings:

Dr. Norman Matloff wrote:

"It should be noted that other technical fields do not show this rapid decline of work in their area. For example, consider civil engineering majors. Six years after graduation, 61% of them are working as civil engineers, and 20 years after graduation, the rate is still 52%; compare this to the decline for computer science majors from 57% to 19% "

Source:
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html#tth_sEc5

As you can see, Dr. Matloff´s numbers are much worse than I gave from my recollection. But the idea is the same. Note that computer science is very closely allied with electrical engineering. With the recent increased concentration of computer subjects in electrical/computer engineering degree programs, it doesn´t take a genius to figure out what´s good for electrical engineering is also good for computer science.

Readers should also note Matloff´s comments relate to the U.S. job market, which is generally seen by many Canadians to be the broader job market for engineers.

On the matter of salaries, the $80K median suggests half of those engineers with 15 years experience would earn less. Those with grad school or MBA, a manager position or have specialist skills in a hot market are probably the ones earning above the $80K median. The proportion of engineers with higher than bachelor level education is roughly 30%. I personally know of no engineers pulling a six figure salary. They are out there but they are in the minority.

Chemical, geological, petroleum engineers are in high demand right now so it stands to reason their salaries should be at the higher end. I´ve always known chemical, not electrical engineers to be the highest paid.


[01-07-2006,02:21]
Anonymous
(in reply to: its not where you go to school... 2)
"the $80K median suggests half of those engineers with 15 years experience would earn less. Those with grad school or MBA, a manager position or have specialist skills in a hot market are probably the ones earning above the $80K median."

The 80K median suggests that half of ALL engineers make above, while the other half makes below. Yes, half of engineers with about 15 years of experience will make less, but there´s the other half that would make MORE. So what´s your point, we´re talking about *averages* to see a general picture of the situation. And your statement that engineers need grad school degrees to make more than 80K is ludicrous. I stated that many managers hold MBA´s but it is not a requirement. In the 2004 PEO survey, all levels, including Level E, F and beyond F, are characterized as having only a Bachelor´s of Engineering as a requirement plus a given number of years of experience depending on the level.
Chemical/Petrolium engineers make more than the 80K median, but you fail to see that Mechanical and Civil engineers also make close to 80K and these are reported by a government site, not some recruitment site.

Last thing, it´s wrong to equate electrical engineering with computer science. Your source discusses the software market, electrical engineers are involved in many many areas, such as electronics, control systems. Whatever happens in computer science does not necessarily affect electrical engineering.

[01-07-2006,03:22]
Anonymous



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