its not where you go to school... 3

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Subject: its not where you go to school... 3
when i say "manager" i dont mean a manager within the engineering department. Ill give you an example of a potential job heiarchy.

1) junior engineers 50K
2) intermediate engineers 70K
3) senior engineers 85K
4) chief engineers 95K

5) superintendents 130K
6) production managers ???
7) general managers ??
8) district managers ???

A sort of manager within engineering would be a chief engineer, who would ultimatly act as a high level engineer E or F. Now notice how i put a space between chief engineer and superintendent? thats because when an engineer gets to that level he no longer has the duties of an engineer, he is a manager now. Rather than being responsable for engineering/engineering employees he now has a hand in everything that goes on in the workplace, a much larger responsability, and a much larger salary.

In an industrial workplace managment positions are usually intended to be occupied by engineers, but at that point they no longer act as such and so are not included in these types of surveys.

[01-07-2006,02:04]
Anonymous
(in reply to: its not where you go to school... 3)
Anyone who knows the salary of financial analsyt in government?
[01-07-2006,03:10]
Anonymous
(in reply to: its not where you go to school... 3)
" As you can see, Dr. Matloff?s numbers are much worse than I gave from my recollection. But the idea is the same. Note that computer science is very closely allied with electrical engineering. With the recent increased concentration of computer subjects in electrical/computer engineering degree programs, it doesn?t take a genius to figure out what?s good for electrical engineering is also good for computer science. "


Electrical engineering is not not computer science. I read your webpage and the arument Dr Matloff was trying to make was simple: computer science majors cannot keep up with new software and become useless after a few years. NOT electrical engineers!!! engineers dont need to learn to code a new computer language every 2 years like comp sci. Older engineers dont become obsolite they do well, very well in fact. You cant just throw EE and comp sci in the same category its ignorant and completely off course.
Why didnt you use a software engineer for your comparison, EE´s and computer engineers dont even know how to program.
But your argument doesnt even apply to software engineers because software engineering is such a new program that degree holders arent even accredited as engineers 9 times out of 10, so the PEO doent even look at them.


By the way, it says in your own article that part of why quite a few civils dont work in thier profession is because "18% of the civil engineers graduates held managerial positions"(aparently much more than in comp sci). Think about this, a civil engineer must compete with other professionals like Arcitects for managerial positions. But whats stopping.. say any other engineer from becoming a manager in his respective company? he has noone else to compete with than other than other engineers so the percentage in managment is going to be even higher.

[01-07-2006,03:28]
Anonymous
(in reply to: its not where you go to school... 3)
"...Electrical engineering is not not computer science"

This may be true but much of electrical engineering these days we call electrical/computer engineering (ECE) has a significant software component found in many CompSci programs. ECE grads and CompSci grads often compete for similar jobs in the marketplace. What´s good for ECE grads is good for CompSci grads.

If you had read yesterday´s newspaper, you might have learned Nortel just anounced another round of layoffs. This time, it´s 1,900 job cuts. This company was once one of Canada´s largest employers of electrical engineers. It might still be. I do not know. In the past 5 years, Nortel cut its staff from over 90,000 to just over 35,000. You can turn a blind eye to that fact if you wish, but I don´t believe any intelligent person can conclude new electrical engineering grads aren´t adversely affected by these cuts. The good news is, Nortel is creating 800 new jobs- in Mexico and Turkey. Yikes!!!

Like it or not, this is the post-bubble reality!

[01-07-2006,04:47]
Anonymous
(in reply to: its not where you go to school... 3)
So what? a company makes a cutback, so whats new? The job market always seems to balence out for engineers anyway. Electrical engineering is still an extemely lucritive profession and will be for a very long time. I only agrued that it was wrong of you to tie it up with computer science since it does not suffer from the same problems as comp sci.

You seem to think that electrical engineers only work with computers, we created a computer engineeering degree for a reason. Because electrical engineering is also steered towards industrial work not involving computers.

[01-07-2006,13:02]
Anonymous
(in reply to: its not where you go to school... 3)
Electrical engineering, computer scientists, and computer engineers DO NOT compete for similar jobs in the marketplace. I have no idea where you got that idea, but get it out of your head because your WRONG.


Computer scientists working in thier fiel are coders, implementating and applying code to computer systems.

Computer engineers are concerned with using electricity to transmit information,(creating computer hardware).

electrical engineering is considered to deal with the problems associated with large-scale electrical systems such as power transmission and motor control. Rather than transfering information, EE´s work to transfer power.

[01-07-2006,13:15]
Anonymous
(in reply to: its not where you go to school... 3)
"The 80K median suggests that half of ALL engineers make above, while the other half makes below. Yes, half of engineers with about 15 years of experience will make less, but there?s the other half that would make MORE. So what?s your point, we?re talking about *averages* to see a general picture of the situation."

I should also have clarified that salaries top out at about $90K. Once the numbers are broken down in detail, it will be easier to estimate how many engineers are actuallly earning the average 80K+ salaries.

The data below is from the 2004 survey. It shows the responsibility levels A-F, the number of reported positions, and the average salary for the corresponding responsibility level. This data is for the entire population regardless of years of experience. Levels E and F can be considered to be senior administrative roles.

Level A 240 $53,012
Level B 509 $59,786
Level C 1063 $67,962
Level D 1306 $79,650
Level E 735 $95,136
Level F 177 $109,012

The overall numbers clearly indicate that, out of the 4,030 jobs reported, only 912 or 22%, had average salary above $79,650. And even a smaller 4.3% of the total positions reported average salary of $109,012. Another way of looking at it is that the vast majority 78% of the overall reported jobs had average salaries of less than $80K.

Based on the overall numbers from the 2004 PEO employer salary survey, the proportion of jobs that reported average salaries of over $80K is only about 22%. The majority of engineers earn less, sometimes much less. This reaffirms my original statement that only a very small portion of engineers earn the $90-100K salaries.










[01-07-2006,15:39]
Anonymous
(in reply to: its not where you go to school... 3)
I have no idea where you got your numbers.This here is the most reliable source available on the net its the 2004 PEO survey use this:

http://www.careercentre.ospe.on.ca/uploaddocuments/d364+2004_Ontario_Engineers_Salaries_Survey_of_Employers_Summary_Report.pdf

Since the real argument was the amount of engineers that make 100K/per year i will clear that up once and for all with some simple calculations using the numbers from the PEO 2004 survey.NOTE THAT 11626 ENGINEERS PARTICIPATED.

LEVEL E LEVEL F
# of Engs Mean $ # of Engs Mean $
2,389 96,760 933 111,978

average salery between Level E and F engineers:
[(933x111978) + (2389x96760)]/(2389+933) =101034.05

percentage of engineers that are E and F level:
(2389+933)/11626 = 0.2857

Therefore, 28.57% of ALL engnieers earn an average of $101,034!!!!!!!!! Think about it for a second, with numbers liek that it is safe to assume that MOST engineers will make atleast 100K/year before they retire.

Your cant argue with numbers.

[01-07-2006,23:31]
Anonymous
(in reply to: its not where you go to school... 3)
Yeah those numbers look okey to me. I still think engineers are underpaid. But that´s an entirely different discussion.
[02-07-2006,03:42]
Anonymous
(in reply to: its not where you go to school... 3)
Comp Sci = Electrical Engineering?
dude, that is the most ignorant statement i´ve ever read. Electrical engineering deals with circuits, electronics, control systems. Computer engineering, being a subset of electrical engineering, deals with the design of computer hardware. If anything, computer science is more related to mathematics. Its relationship with software engineering is still debatable, and even one poster noted that software engineering is still a fairly new program that wasn´t even accredited a few years ago.

Yes, Nortel layed ppl off. I like the fact that you chose a company that completely collapsed due to a financial scandal and has a history of layoffs to represent the gloomy situation for electrical engineers. Cuz all electrical engineers work for Nortel don´t they? Let´s not forget Nortel is a telecommunications company. You can´t possibly think that all electrical engineers in the world specialized in telecommunications or work in telco companies.

"The overall numbers clearly indicate that, out of the 4,030 jobs reported, only 912 or 22%, had average salary above $79,650. And even a smaller 4.3% of the total positions reported average salary of $109,012. Another way of looking at it is that the vast majority 78% of the overall reported jobs had average salaries of less than $80K."

What on dear earth are you speaking of? Did we not establish the fact that the PEO salary survey states that the median salary is 80K? A median is a number that splits the sample in half. Therefore, 50% of all engineers make over 80K, not 22%! This is a figure that is reflected in many salary surveys. And engineering salaries top out at over 100K.

The above poster summed it up perfectly about the 100K salaries. I´ve done my calculations and I also get around 30% of engineers making an average of 100K. And this is a number that omits some of the Level D engineers who also make close to 100K. And Level E engineers are not administrators. Only Level F and beyond F are characterized as administrative levels.

Let´s not forget that the PEO survey only accounts for base salary. The OIQ survey shows base salary and direct remuneration. Direct remuneration is total income including base salary, allowances, overtime pay, stock options, etc. These additional sources of pay change the income levels significantly. For example, all engineers in Quebec have a mean base salary of 80.3K. However, the mean direct remuneration for Quebec engineers is 89.4K. So the number of engineers making a -total income- of 100K is even more.

[02-07-2006,04:11]
Anonymous
(in reply to: its not where you go to school... 3)
"I?ve done my calculations and I also get around 30% of engineers making an average of 100K"

The proportion of engineers who have master´s or higher degrees was also mentioned to be around 30%. Engineers with Master´s usually earn about 20-25% more than the median salaries. It´s likely the higher earners have higher degrees.

[02-07-2006,05:43]
Anonymous
(in reply to: its not where you go to school... 3)
Again, engineers in all levels including Level E, F and beyond F only need to have a bachelor´s of engineering and whatever experience depending on the level. This is specified in the PEO report. Although engineers with grad degrees do make more, saying that only engineers with grad degrees get 100K, or even that the majority have grad degrees, is pure speculation and is an unsupported claim.
[02-07-2006,06:14]
Anonymous



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